Altmann - MLCv3 - MC - comparissons

[Grendel_Blitz]

UPDATED SINCE POSTED BASED ON MEMBERS FEEDBACK (04/30/20101) - Originally posted as an MC helmet but now updated to the MLCv1. Thanks all!

 

Hey gang, I am a week behind with this but better late than....

 

NOTE: For some time I have had a mystery recast in which a kindly scout helped me resolve just last week - the MLCv1 Helmet.

(thanks "Scooter" for sending me pics of the bucket that you recently sold which proved mine to be the MLCv1)

 

Also, I have completely reworked my MC as since it was roto-cast resin, the shape did not hold up very well - warping and sagging occurred.

I completely revamped the visor, view port and the top of the lid as it was actually concave - doh!

 

I have my three lids lined up with comments (IMO of course) so I hope this is a fun post for you all. \m/

Please correct me if I am wrong about any of this as this is an exploration of the different helmets, first and foremost.

 

First off, all lids lined up. Attempted to be as "straight on" as possible.

Altmann (ABS) is the largest both width and height.

MLCv3 (Fiberglass) is second highest but also the most narrow.

MLCv1 (Resin - but they are typically fiberglass) is the least high but is surprisingly as wide as the Altmann.

 

 

Here I attempted to get a good perspective of the differences in snout shapes.

I must say that I really like the curvature of the MLCv1 snout best out of the three.

 

 

Arial pic - notice again the snout shapes and the difference in visor widths.

 

 

Here is the bottom of the MLCv1 and which is the tell-tail sign that it is indeed the MC.

There is a chin under the snout which other models do not have. Also, this model does not have an area where a chin strap could be used.

Let me also note, that though resin, "my" MLCv1 is the heaviest of the three (prolly b/c of the chin). The Altmann still the lightest being ABS.

Again, normally the MC is a nicer fiberglass model.

 

 

Here is the underside of the MLCv3. No chin-snout and this one has a well done chin-strap addition.

This is a very nice product but it is too small for my head.

 

 

The Altmann undercarriage (my long-lost baby and #102 of 500 - and I gotta send lots of SW-LOVE out to Rick "e-i" for making my Altmann's dream come true again - I will never forget, brother!).

Again, open chin-snout and possibly enough area to add a chin-strap feature (which I would never do to this lid) - notice the copy of the MC Armor How-To next to the bucket as well)

 

 

Now the following has nothing to do with the above but I wanted to vent some...

I finally go the MLCv1 reworked and painted and though many out there may like roto-casting, I DO NOT.

I have been working off and on with this reshape for a year now. No matter how much work you put into a roto-cast, you truly never know where there are hidden bubbles in the resin until they decide to surface. Needless to say, after painting it, BEHOLD... two larger bubble recesses were found.

 

 

 

So seeing that I needed to reglass this part, I chuncked out a couple top areas that I was not completely happy with and reglassed the front and top again. I plan to update this thread with the turnout of this bucket as well so stay tuned...

 

 

 

Also, since this was my first reshape attempt, I learned a lot - what NOT TO DO next time are the most important.

What NOT TO DO - use large quantities of wood filler and bondo.

WHY? Because they eventually chip, crack and break with a helmet that flexes.

 

WHAT TO DO (I thought that you would never ask... )

While fixing up an older surf board during my trials with this helmet I realized that I had the best stuff to reshape my lid the entire time.

I began using SunCure (which I use to fix dings and holes in my surf boards).

 

Awesome stuff. It take a bit of sanding but the final result is diamond hard and smooth! Dries in just a few hours of sun too.

The thing to know is that this stuff NEEDS TO CURE IN THE SUN - otherwise is stays sticky.

 

Here are the details for the stuff and this can usually be found at most surf shops as well (at least here in Florida).

The down side... This is good for small projects since the tube is not that large.

LINK

 

I hope these images are useful to anyone out there.

Thanks gang!!!!!!

 

~ Grendel_Blitz

 

\m/

Edited April 30, 2012 by Grendel_Blitz

[TB-7076]

MC looks pretty much like MLC V1 - I had one back in 2006, same chin lip, maybe a tad wider...

 

http://www.star-wear...ng/helmet02.jpg

 

Edit* Here you can see all sdes and the lip:

http://www.star-wears.madphisto.net/reports/clst_mlc.jpg

 

didn't know the altman was that big.

[automaton]

MC looks pretty much like MLC V1 - I had one back in 2006, same chin lip, maybe a tad wider...

 

http://www.star-wear...ng/helmet02.jpg

 

didn't know the altman was that big.

 

I think you are right. MC doesn't make his own helmets. The current "MC" helmet is the MLC V3. He just orders them from MLC and paints them and finishes them with his decals and snout.

[Griffin-X]

What, no KS helmet? Great post Matt, I really like your helmet comparisons and work!

 

[kabuto]

I agree that The MC helmet is actually a MLCv1. I currently own one that is still in kit form. Thanks for sharing this comparisson Grendel_Blitz

[lonewolf]

Great comparison pics Matt, the Altmanns does look very big compared to the MLC V3.

 

They are all nice looking helmets.

I can see the evolution of the MLC clearly.

We all have a particular look that we identify as an accurate Biker Scout helmet. I know camera angles/lens/distances can make them look very slim or other pics make them look too wide and I have my particular angles that I think really show off the sexy curves of this design.

 

I can understand why you like the curves on the MLCV1,how the jawline is nice but the originals are not so extreme. I can see how this was exaggerated while it was created and I can understand why the newer versions were changed, although now to the other extreme.

 

the eye areas are very difficult to replicate, the curvature changes on the original helmets only by the angle of the photograph, yes they are all cut out slightly differently but the main problem is the picture angle.

 

The curvature of the top of the visor is dependant on the angle at the sides of the visor. I am not sure why they are all different but the originals are more curved than these helmets above. The KS looks closer to the originals on the above pic.

 

I think the Altmanns is too wide, the dome is too rounded and the faceplate a bit too flat, it was possibly made this way to accommodate bigger heads, maybe. It has the assymmetrical eyes which is very accurate and looks to be the closest in accuracy between the four helmets.

 

Build quality I think the MLC V3 is the best, not including kit builds.

 

Thanks for posting.

[TB-7076]

I thought this MC actually referred to another maker with same initials. I know MonCal got permission from MLC but in cooperation changed the design to 2.5 and later 3.

So I first thought this to be a whole different helmet but with same features like the SFA (recast?) with the strange angled snout that looks like that V1.

[Grendel_Blitz]

Thanks for the input folks! I have often been given confusing info on the MC vs. MLC helmet debate. I never thought that there was a true MC but since seeing the shots of Scooters that he sent to me, thought that there actually was one now... I have never seen the MLCv1 until now and am wondering if the v2 has such noticeable differences that the v1 and v3 have.

 

@Jim - I have often considered picking up a KS but just have not gotten around to it. The Altmann's reacquisition has been my top priority (scratch that one of my list).

 

@John - taking good perspective pictures of any helmet is a chore - one that you have done nicely. I also agree with you about the finished MLCv3 - the quality is superb.

John - how large it your build compared to what you would guess of the Altmann's? (I am asking in case a run ever happens as I could not wear anything comfortably that is smaller than the MLC lid)

 

Well, I have the recast getting closer to what I hope is a finally primer - then the Glossy White. I will post with more soon!

 

\m/

[lonewolf]

I think the Altmanns is bigger than my lid,I have never seen an Altmanns for real but the way the inside forehead part is chopped out , the lack of innerside edge and with the wide faceplate it looks the biggest.

I have physically compared my lid to the MLC V3, the Studio Creations, the DP standard , the CB v1 and the Kropserkel, I think my lid is comparable to them all , I like a big return edge on the underside so this reduces the opening and depending on how the two rear sides are joined, it will affect the front face opening slightly. I found the MLC V3 as easy to slip onto my head, it has no bottom lip however. SC is the smallest but best overall look, the KS is too stumpy.

I took measurements of the original helmet as seen in our gallery and my helmet is very close to this one. I think the Altmanns is too wide and the helmet dome [as looking from above] is too rounded.The original helmets were not an easy helmet to put on apparently.

 

The Don Post is very accurate[yes the vinyl material is rubbish] , I am completely certain it is from original Biker Scout helmet molds or an original helmet.

Yes it is definately smaller than the original helmets , there are some changes, but generally speaking there are a lot of "tells" on the DP to prove it's heritage, just like the EFX! There are too many similarities for a fan sculpt.

As I researched every aspect of the Helmet I have came to this conclusion.

All these helmets are good, all have faults, mine is too sharp! The originals were not all the same sharpness, some are pretty soft pulls.

I was trying to get all the different original helmet pics together from the remaining originals to show the differences, still a wip!

There is one good pic of an original helmet, the lighting is directly from above and the pull on this particular lid is the best of all the others. The Steve Sansweet/Prop store of London is a poor pull in comparison. The eye area has very little detail.

These are my opinions, it is as honest as I can be.

[ukscout]

@Matt - great thread

 

@John - if you want to compare your LW lid against my own Altmann lid please kindly post me your lid too....

 

MLC dose make seriously good helmets and where one of the best lids to have either in your own

collection or to troop in

 

Altmann's and DP both had a original screen used helmet sent to them to enable them to reproduce their own version

of the ROTJ helmet.

 

But I recall LFL/Lucas requested that the helmets they made where slightly different to the originals i.e. scale and and overall

shape to prevent exact copies of the originals being sold and that fans had a diluted copy.

 

DP did do a good run of these helmets, wish I had one of the 25 delux versions but these are very rare.

 

Rubbies manufactured the scout helmet and produced poor copies of the DP lid due to poor selection of material used

to form these helmets.

 

My personal take on the Prop Store lid is that it could of been a "stunt" helmet hence it's poor condition, in my personal view

but due to the low numbers of scout costumes made i.e 25 these could of been all "hero" helmets?

 

anyway good to see another comparison thread

[Griffin-X]

Agreed...great thread posting Matt.

[Grendel_Blitz]

Thanks for the positive comments on the thread everyone.

 

John and Neil - I really appreciate the detailed comments about your knowledge of various helmets as well.

 

The Mystery Recast I have, has been a personal investigation for over a year now and knowing that it came from the MLCv1 is great to know.

 

I will post my progress on the recast build as well. Not much farther to go!

 

\m/

[lonewolf]

My modified CB helmet with an original,

 

And some old pics of some of my Biker Scout helmets, CB[heavily chopped and modified] My Helmet and my Kropserkel

[Grendel_Blitz]

And some old pics of some of my Biker Scout helmets, CB[heavily chopped and modified] My Helmet and my Kropserkel

 

Whow! That modified CB looks awesome! Is it fiberglass? Nice job... (is that CB-"Christian" by chance?)

So which is closer to the actual prop width? The modified CB or your build?

 

Either way, nice "bucket list" there.

 

\m/

[ukscout]

hi Matt

 

are you saying the mystery lid you have is a recast from a MLC v1.0? blimey didn't realise some had recasted it

 

@John - great work in modding the CB helmet it looks really close to the screen used helmet.

 

we must get MLC too give us a break down on what he did from v1 to v3

 

also must get my MLC v1.0 finished this summer

[lonewolf]

Yes it was a very thin fibreglass/resin helmet, it was cracked and unwanted when I finally got it. It lay in a box, I couldn't even look at it without getting angry for buying a lemon! It was a bad Ebay buy, lots of problems even getting it, a long wait and some ill feeling messages may have helped keep it "lost".

So I researched the real helmet, cut the fibreglass helmet to pieces,parts were soft resin, weak thinner resin paper! I adjusted just about every angle I could, widened parts and changed curvatures, some aspects were still nasty and my fibreglassing, fillering skills improved quickly. It was very heavy by the finish!

It was a great learning curve for me. I was quite happy with the result, polishing a turd came to mind! So a bit of good came out of it.

 

I think my helmet has a lot more of the problems ironed out, it is bigger than the modified cb , whe I saw the original helmet I had to make my own. With the new size, the prior experience with my 1995 Don Post and this CB helmet I have been struggling ever since to get my lid "right!"

My middle helmet above has since been changed a bit.

I thought I had some SC helmet /MLCV3 comparison pics but can't find them.

 

And to think some folks can't see any difference!

[lonewolf]

Thanks Neil, yes the size similarity was good , better than everything else out there.I have no other good things to say about it however. Trooping in it was a nightmare due to the new weight of it!

[Grendel_Blitz]

are you saying the mystery lid you have is a recast from a MLC v1.0? blimey didn't realise some had recasted it

 

 

Hey Neil - yes. The mystery recast is officially found to be an MLCv1 - I bought it on eBay about three years ago and the maker known as "Fan Made" was recasting a bunch of stuff apparently. I say this because I wanted to get my brother a Vader mask and did so through this guy. Needless to say it was also resin and would not hold its shape. So I found a Vader Don Post Deluxe and bought it for my brother. I compared it with the recast and they were identical. So now I have a VADER DP Deluxe recast that will probably live in my shed forever as-is - UGLY and unwanted.

[Griffin-X]

My modified CB helmet with an original,

 

And some old pics of some of my Biker Scout helmets, CB[heavily chopped and modified] My Helmet and my Kropserkel

 

Wow, great work on the CB conversion LW. I had no idea you went through such an ordeal with him over the lid. I've had a similar experience with him.

 

Also, it's really cool to see yours and Matt's comparison pics in one post. It helps a guy like me see the differences in shape, form, and fashion. Nice work m8t.

 

Do you plan make your LW lid available to scouts?

[lonewolf]

I don't want to hijack this interesting thread but I wish I had heard

I had no idea you went through such an ordeal with him over the lid. I've had a similar experience with him.

 

 

Do you plan make your LW lid available to scouts?

Without hijacking this thread any more,

I am very sorry to hear this Jim, I still feel so stupid buying it, and the angry feelings I had over it. Hope you are sorted now. I can only advise folks on my experience now. Maybe other guys will come forward and tell their experiences.

I hope to make a few kits available very soon, but I say this all the time!

 

Sorry, back to topic!

[Verne]

I totally agree with John concerning the pedigree of the DP helmet. It has many details which also appears on originals helmets.

 

Due to the mass production and the quality of the plastic, the DP is generally wider and "crushed".

 

What I don't explain is why one hole is missing on the back of the helmet. Those are especially sharp and deep in comparison of the screen used helmet.

 

Another detail, why the faceplate is smaller (especially the snout area and jaws)?

[lonewolf]

We need to have a chat with Don Post about the reasons. I can try to understand why licensed manufacturers may be told to make a less than accurate product, I thought it may have been scaled down for children or possibly a simple reason was it needed to fit into a certain sized packaging box!

 

The original helmets may have 9 slots on the forming buck, 8.5 on the final assembled helmets. The DP may have lost 8 and 9 due to the shrinking and resizing. The depth of the DP slots may be because it was cast from the original molds which I think may have been as deep as the DP helmet slots. The original vac pulls were quite weak and/or there were no drill holes at this point on the bucks to get a deep pull. I have 6 hair thick holes in each of my slots to get some better detail. There is a very distinct eye area shape on the DP/Altmanns/KS and early MLC helmets which is a tell as well. There are lots of strange changes , like the shallow nose section which I don't understand but I am pretty certain it was a buck Don Post had to copy and not a helmet.

 

The sharpness of the DP is better than the originals, another sign it was a buck copy, I am pretty sure the vac machine used to pull the helmets wasn't great or the plastic was tricky to heat etc etc, proof in the different sharpness of pulls of the original helmets. The surrounding eye area of the DP is very sharp, very like one of the original helmets [two steps]which seems to be sharper than the Steve Sansweet/Prop store of London helmet eye area[smooth flat appearance]

There are a lot more things about the helmet and it's variations that are interesting , it was such a great design.

[Verne]

It would have been really great to see the whole set of molds created by EFX using the originals.

[TB-7076]

The size difference and the deformed parts of the DP I always thought to be a side effect of the material and how it reacted to the process and the target group.

 

Somone here said for children I say youth size. While the deluxe helmet was targeted to collectors the classic DP while still expensive for a "toy" was probably made for early teens.

DP classic was made from vinyl. While the mould of DP may already have had changes the quite extreme deformities may be a result from the cooling process and how the material reacted.

 

I'm convinced the DP moulds were taken form the original moulds or maybe a bucket (I think Altmann also said he had an original bucket to make his). Otherwise there wouldnt be a point in copying artifacts like the unique shapes around the slot for the visor bolts for example. Traces you may even discover base helmets used for the mother moulds etc. They serve no real function really so it would be senseless to copy those as not being visible except in opened position.

 

Interviews with people that had contact with the helmets sound interesting but I have realized that most of the people that had the opportunity to work with the originals usually don't remember much or at least rarely something that we already know. They simply didn't know what could happening when they did "a job" out of many.

When did DP stop producing the helmts? I think I bought one of the later issues in 1996 and still curse the day I decided to take the economy helmet instead of the expensive one....

6 months later I could have had the funds for that one as well....

 

I also think that the slots have been well defined in the mother mould - something EFX officials could reveal to us these days.

[Chef]

DP classic was made from vinyl. While the mould of DP may already have had changes the quite extreme deformities may be a result from the cooling process and how the material reacted.

 

I'm with Phillip on this one.

 

I had a Vinyl bucket and it would retain it's shape for about 3 weeks before doing something weird. I think what ever mould they came out of would bear no relevance to what actually arrived in the shops.

Being stuck on a warm shelf for months on end would no doubt cause untold warping.

 

 

 

I think when the EFX one is released, a lot of answers will be there. Despite it being a GRP bucket, the size and detailing should reveal a lot.