TB-7076 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Article VI has never been applied to replica issues. That would violate the neutral stance of the legion regarding costuming issues and put the legion in a troublesome position once siding in favour for any replica artist due to the problematic of non authorized replication of copyrighted content. If you don't reaslize that dilema of the legion then that's your problem. Recasting has always been controversal within the legion and a problem for those who wanted to protect original replica artists. If you were a member you would know that - at least Steelblitz should know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatshock Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 hey darth nova - I am new to this whole scene really. I think the concern is that not only is there a question abt an individual recasting, but SGB actually enquired to the GG officially - and there seemed to be a rather cool response from GG cmd (all this ofc is via this thread, and I personally have no direct source of info). Which kinda surprised me tbh. I know that the 501 central cmd has to have a rather open policy , but that local Garrisons would have slightly harder stance, even if not officially, then at least off-the-record. More importantly - to see personally that it is wrong. I am not in the 501 (yet, lol and after this I may not get in ;P) - but more from the SW prop side. Recasting - once proven - is a big no-no. Just, no. ur cossie (lol incl the blaster marks on the lid) looks very cool. But the big difference in my book is that u realise that recasting is wrong; which seems in contrast to the alleged offender and his CO. I am also a little perturbed by the statement that there are people who have knowingly bought stuff from SFP. I blame no one for buying stuff before knowing better, but after? And to say they are happy abt their purchase. THat is very worrying. And my personal opinion - wrong as well. a blanket ban to a country is a little extreme - but u can see it from the makers point of view when 'official channels' seem to readily aceppt, condone and maybe ?encourage recasting. I am sure makers long term customers (ie like u darth with ur 4 cossies) with proven track records would prob be safe. I am pointing fingers at no one. As I see it - at the moment theres no proof either way. And I am merely one very small voice in this whole discussion. I can see the problem re:recasting and the official 501 stance (they are knda stuck); and I can also see the point of view of the makers who have invested money, time, effort, love, blood and tears. But its the general response to original question - which basically was; can u show us ur WIP and manufact process really - which does prompt a few question marks and alarm bells in my mind. I mean; if its all really on the up-and-up; then wots to not show? I did look at the original WIP and thought - wow cool. I do hope that this does get sorted amicably Take care all. Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopps Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 wow we collectors from germany have to buy recasts in future cause we won´t get the originals nice an other point is every country have their own recasters would you stop selling there? or look around in the US there are as many recasters as everywhere i would say you should sell all around the world you couldn´t stop recast your items since you sold the first item but you can make the right items available for fans and collectors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TB-7076 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Heatshock - a CO has no means to ban members or to make people stop recasting. A CO is bound to the 501s charter and unless the 501st isn't altering the stance regarding sourcing of costumes he cannot do anything about it. So from a 501st angle there is no legal backup for action against members doing recasts. The only thing we can do is educating about recasts. This is done in the detachments and within garrisons and on legion level some members do as well. But still you cannot convince/reach all with this information and as the legion also has a hard time increasing the requirements to a level most recasts would fall through there is only passive action by the membership itself possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EVO3 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 wow we collectors from germany have to buy recasts in future cause we won´t get the originals nice an other point is every country have their own recasters would you stop selling there? or look around in the US there are as many recasters as everywhere i would say you should sell all around the world you couldn´t stop recast your items since you sold the first item but you can make the right items available for fans and collectors WOW! That is weak! we realize there are recasters all over the world and in our backyard as well. This is why the AC was formed. To organize all the info we have on these people. As far as your POV on recasting our work because we wont sell to you. Your garrison mate recasted a SFP Clone pilot helmet. I cant imagine that those are hard to get. Are they?? You can buy as many of those helmets as you would ever want from them, yet he recasted that anyways instead of buying another. That kinda contradicts everything you just stated. Your case doesnt hold water sir. Sorry bout that! Good luck next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TB-7076 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Still he has a valid point that people who wanted to get a certain costume but being blocked from any original source are forced to buy a recast then. A lot of people approach me and ask for advice for costumes and I always send them to original creators (I guess some may testify this) and help them to understand why a certain original product is superior to the crap often much easier to access. Now if your organisation or even just a few decide to stop supplying these - maybe fewer but honest and idealistic - costumers those who cannot do such props have no othr choice but to buy from those sources. Is this really helping the cause? I know that this option seems the only one to satisfy your need for justice but I doubt it is really the remedy you're hoping for. So far most recasts have been inferior to the original products. Some people within the legion are working towards more quality needed to get in but with an entire area being unable to obtain quality stuff this attempt to passively control what's getting in and which is not may also be deemed to fail as accessability is a factor. I know that is none of your business as most artists aren't even in the legion but still it affects what is happening to your products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper1389 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 wow we collectors from germany have to buy recasts in future cause we won´t get the originals nice an other point is every country have their own recasters would you stop selling there? or look around in the US there are as many recasters as everywhere i would say you should sell all around the world you couldn´t stop recast your items since you sold the first item but you can make the right items available for fans and collectors That is not the case, the makers want to keep their hard work from being re-casted, but it can't be done. But what can be done is find out one by one who the re caster(s) is or are, and let everyone know. If the people in a particular area, lets say Arizona USA wont help in ousting a re-caster, then that person in that state or country will ruin it for the rest of the people in that area as they support them. With that in mind, it's not the original makers fault you will not get things sent there and have to rely on a re cast part, it the individuals that support them who are at fault of not being sold any originals. call it retaliation is it wrong no I choose to sell to whom I want to. And others choose to support who them want to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TB-7076 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Do I automatically support someone just because he happens to live in my country/state/city? Do I automatically support someone just because my hands are bound to move someone out of a club? As long as a member doesn't violate the charter (so far no one in the legion council has put the term "theft" from article VI in relation to recasts) he stays a member. It might be that some garrisons follow their own policies and overrule legion policy but not in mine. So should I go to his place and kill him? (sorry for this exaggeration) The only thing I can do is - I repeat - educate about and ignore recasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatshock Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Phillip - like I said; i'm not part of any 501 organisation as yet. But I do realise that the CO of any garrison as well as the 501 as whole has a troublsome dilema with regard to this whole hobby as it is all essentially stomping all over copyright and rides a fine line with Uncle George. I also didnt suggest that a CO ban a member for recasting. LIke I said - I have not had any of the correspondance 1st hand, but was responding to the post in which SGB said "......He was very un cooperative to say the least and basically condones this behavior I guess, and not once did he say well im sorry for the original artist ...." . Which to some1 new to the 501, but not collecting prop replicas, sounded a little off. It is heartening to here that u to believe that only thing we can do is educate members about recasts. I think this the right stance to take; as it still stays within 501 regulations, but lets members know its not a good thing to recast. Also, AC has said it isnt gonna do a blanket ban either. The BARC cossie certainly looks like a lot of effort went into it, and altough I support the original makers on their stance as a principle; I have yet to see evidence on either side of the argument to prove/disprove the recasting allegation. Best of luck to coming to a amicable resolution! Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TB-1019 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Guys, please watch yourselves here. BSN is a location to talk about costuming and the staff here will not hesitate to start locking down threads relating to recasting or accusations thereof. If you want to continue this controversy, I suggest you do it in private emails. I've said it before and I will say it again: the Pathfinders are a 501st Detachment and are obligated to stand by the Legion's policy of taking no stance on the topic of recasting. We will not takes sides and we will not allow our forums to be used as a public battleground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TB-7076 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 It's not that easy for us non-native speakers to always react as sensitive as the reader would like to. I think most of us try their best to communicate correctly with native speakers but you will realize that we quickly face our boundaries in communication skill especially in cases such as this one. The next thing is that as an elected spokesman of a club you cannot always do what you would do as a provate person. I also only know from SGB's impression and summary what he extracted form the conversation. Emails and PMs are private so I just accept as is. What I know is that we have a discussion about this in the garrison and I think when he responded to my statement it sounded reasonable. From what I've read in the clone empire there is a lot of dissapointment about the practice of the 501st agenda regarding costume sources but I doubt the road taken is going to lead to a betterment of the whole situation. This is an ethic question and not a constitutional one as we are all operating at the edge of legality and the claim for fair play by this collective of artists is something that can only work if people have the freedom of choice. If you take away the base to make a choice you force all of them to do the wrong thing. You just create a big market for recast sellers making it even more profitable for them. From experience you know that even if people refused to sell to certain persons that hasn't prevented recasts to show up at a certain point. Even your "honest" customers may sell their stuff at one day - and to be honest such sellouts I see happening quite often in the US as people frequently get into financial problems. A lot of props pass a lot of owners. On a personal note - I'm one of the people who are working towards more quality within the legion. The problem is that while Quality and Availability of the replicas are increasing the average quality of the legion doesn't increase accordingly. I have a bad stance promoting quality when quite a considerable segment of the replicators break away for a whole garrison or even continent. So again 1:0 for the recasters as one way or the other as long as props are traded they will fall into recaster's hands sooner or later. Everyone loses something. Establish forums where recasts are made known and also their drawbacks compared to the original. People should know with what kind of crap they're showing off but please don't cut the direct supply line for people who like to support the original artist. * Ouh sorry Jay - I wrote while you were posting - delete if necessary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest skygunbro Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 OK last time folks....NO one said anything about a blanket ban to Germany.Basically again the AC is a info share board for prop makers. We share info regarding recasting etc. There are no RULES there meaning if i decide not to sell to someone based on on info received then thats my decision and right.If someone else in the AC decides to do business as usual based on the same info then thats their rights as well. See the AC does not control the sales of any prop makers that is a member..if several of them decide to block sales to the same area thats their decision.NO one is pressured to do anything they dont want to. And your absolutely right there are recasters everywhere we have dealt with this same situation 3 times in the US in the last few months those situations were treated the same way some AC members are not selling to those areas and some are..just like here in this case. And the CO of the GG has to abide by the rules and is...Like I said before until the rules change they are law...I was just asking for some cooperation and maybe have him speak to Jason and maybe see if we could get this stopped on a different level. Did communications break down ...yes was we both were difficult with each other.It started out friendly but then quickly degraded. Rules or not ,taking someones work and molding it is wrong.And with all respect to the staff here, other boards including 501st official boards have worked with us to help in these situations.I understand official boards backed by the 501st have to also conform to certain rules but I would hope you could and will do something to make sure that people who are making and selling recasted items arent allowed to do business on your boards... I agree everything that needs to be said has been and we should go back to our regularly scheduled programs. I personally will not reply again to this thread. I have said what I need to and hopefully made my point and clarified some misconceptions about our supposed mafia group..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD 5491 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I stand with the AC 100%. I own a PGHFETT helmet and that helmet in the auction is a recast, no doubt... I would also like to add that I'm a Proud and I do mean PROUD owner of many of these bros helmets and I see first hand on how much time they put into a project just by the quality of the piece and for recasters to screw that chance for me to own them really steams my blood. Be a man, be original, inovate don't imatate.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TB-1019 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Rules or not ,taking someones work and molding it is wrong.And with all respect to the staff here, other boards including 501st official boards have worked with us to help in these situations.I understand official boards backed by the 501st have to also conform to certain rules but I would hope you could and will do something to make sure that people who are making and selling recasted items arent allowed to do business on your boards... What would you have us do, SGB? Ban him? He's a 501st member which entitles him to have access to this board. He's violated no forum or Legion rule. If he posted a for-sale thread here for a run of these things, I would shut it down just as fast as if it were an SFP sale, but he didn't do that. Some other person posted a link to an eBay auction (another thing the Legion takes no position on monitoring) that showed the object in question. If anyone needs to be reprimanded for violating forum rules, it was that guy (who even admitted that he was violating them). I immediately deleted the link and the auction number and closed the thread. This guy is not doing a run of these to sell them amongst the German Garrison or to anyone else. That is my stance as the ADL of the Pathfinders. This is my personal opinion: If he is guilty of anything, it's offending the ethical practices of everyone in the Armorer's Coalition. Unfortunately, not everyone in the world conforms to the best ethics of mankind. To expect people should because you and your fellow armorers think they should is very unrealistic. I'm not saying you are wrong, I am saying that you are tilting windmills as usual. I've confronted you on this both on CT.net and CE and I'm disappointed to see that you still continue to take the wrong approach to tackling what obviously is a bothersome subject. I would be elated if the AC would come up with a well-written treatise on their position on recasting and why all new costumers need to avoid buying from recasters instead of acting like a blacklisting squad. Stopping sales into a geographic location is an insane policy. What good does that do? It only forces people into the hands of recasters because they cannot get parts from legitimate armorers because they were unlucky enough to live in the same area! I won't even get started on the loopholes in that policy that can be exploited. I'm just saying that the best defense against recasting is to educate new costumers to the subject and why it is important (to them, NOT YOU) that they buy from honest, legitimate artisans. Instead of putting all your energy into ranting and raving and whipping up the villagers to pick up their torches and pitchforks to march on the castle, redirect it into something productive, for chrissakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steelblitz Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 wow we collectors from germany have to buy recasts in future cause we won´t get the originals nice an other point is every country have their own recasters would you stop selling there? or look around in the US there are as many recasters as everywhere i would say you should sell all around the world you couldn´t stop recast your items since you sold the first item but you can make the right items available for fans and collectors Yes, I have enacted self-imposed temporary bans in selling to certain states within the USA after I found a pattern of my items being recast in that state. EVO's own state of Florida comes to mind from earlier this year. You know what happened then? The rest of the garrison members, including their command staff, stepped up to remedy the recasting situation. That single person recasting shed a negative light on the entire garrison and the garrison as a whole rectified the situation. That is the key right there. Communicate with your garrison mates and educate them on what is wrong with recasting. When every new person joins your garrison looking for parts, educate them as to where to look and who to avoid. I can relate as my first ever SW costuming purchase years ago was what I later found out to be a recast set of armor. As a new person to my garrison and the costuming scene in general, I was led by my garrison command staff to a recaster in my garrison. Not knowing better and no-one telling me otherwise, I made the purchase. The armor was total crap and set me back hundreds of $$$. It has been my point since then to make sure no one goes through what I did in trying to join the Legion. Turning a blind eye to a garrison mate who is recasting is not looking out for your fellow Legion members and weakens the group as a whole. I'm done here also since the po-po (TB1019) showed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest skygunbro Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I said I wasn't going to post again...i lied i guess. AGAIN did anyone NOT read what I said. I did not say BAN Germany I did NOT make any one say anything they didn't want to I did NOT force anyone to do anything nor would I try. I have been educating people on why not to buy recasted items but if I see it happening Im going to say something and put the person on notice..I always have always will. I did NOT force a Area BAN on items to areas where recasters reside nor would I even try...AGAIN if someone in the AC decides not to sell to whoever that's always been and always will be their and solely their decision. I also said but it obviously was NOT read I would hope people that are recasting would not be allowed to do business on the boards ...you said you would not allow it...did I ask you to ban him?....NO did I ask to ban sales of recasted items YES. Please read everything carefully .... AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN..until you get it ..then go back and read it again. And again why am I being attacked here..I didn't make bucks of someone stuff and start selling them I didn't pour rubber on someones stuff and sell them....oh but wait its ok because of the charter...and the real artisans get screwed once again and the recaster skips away because of lame policies. Jay you don't like me its a personal issue so from now on instead of acting like my dad and scolding me in front of everyone pm me.... You obviously only read bits and pieces of what I write and again you have blown everything out of proportion and twisted my words into something that I never said.Now you have me globally banning everyone and in sighting riots and burning people at the stake ...give me a break...I outed this guy proved he was lying asked he stop that was it...again why is it wrong to show people that someone is doing a dirty deed? And I may be tilting windmills but at least I'm doing something proactive.....I took your advice I have not been as aggressive and heated in the last few recasting situations I have educated a lot of new guys coming into the hobby why supporting recasters is bad....but like it or not part of educating people is to point out recasters and why they shouldn't buy from them...so in this case he was pointed out. I know your bound by your little charter but harboring people who take from others and letting it slide is a lot of the reason why we have more and more 501st people doing it because they are protected by the "no stance" policy.Theft is also a policy in the 501st charter that is supposedly a punishable offense......seems like a contradiction. You said he wont be banned(which I never asked him to be btw) because he broke no forum rules or 501st rules.So that means forum rules allow theft as well as 501st allows theft...right cause thats what happened here....and the real artists and their supporters are the ones getting crap and the recaster is protected...lol does that seem insane to anyone else? So basically if i make something and someone copies it its ok and un punishable..but if i complain that someone copied my stuff that is punishable..wow This guy made molds of everything, admitted he has molds says in his auction he is going to make them but not mass produce them..and your rules protect HIM? What about pghfett who has been an outstanding member here in his help to other members offering items at cost donating to a members charity...and he gets the shaft? wow what backwards policies.....I dont care if he was selling them here or not..like I told madphisto this is the only place he was responding that why all this puke ended up here.If rules are in place to protect guys like this then the rules should be changed.And by allowing this it seems that this behavior is supported. Tell ya what if we write up a "why you should not buy from recasters" would you place it on BSN? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopps Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 WOW! That is weak! we realize there are recasters all over the world and in our backyard as well. This is why the AC was formed. To organize all the info we have on these people. As far as your POV on recasting our work because we wont sell to you. Your garrison mate recasted a SFP Clone pilot helmet. I cant imagine that those are hard to get. Are they?? You can buy as many of those helmets as you would ever want from them, yet he recasted that anyways instead of buying another. That kinda contradicts everything you just stated. Your case doesnt hold water sir. Sorry bout that! Good luck next time. sorry maybe you didn´t get my point but i´m not sure how to get the real deal idf there is a ban against us so what will i do if i wanna go for a new costume? not talented in sculpting my own imo you´ll open the door for a lot of poor quality crap recasts maybe some good recasts but i´m not sure if that should be the goal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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