Guest TD832 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 ill tell you what stealing is sending some guy ( might be a 501st member ) a few hundred bucks for kit and not getting it times runs out on paypal no chance of getting cash back NOW THATS STEALING and how many times has that happend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nzjedi Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 You are breaking the law of your country and are in violation of 501st membership charter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TD832 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 who has the copyright for the bark helmets then ???? i see it so the barc helmet was made by a private artist ( has he the copy rights ) this helmet was copied ( how many times we do not know ) i bought a copied helmet and upgraded it how was i too know if the helmet was copied or not they dont write that sort of thing on the auctions dont you think that a group of guys that are doing a witchunt and using such tactics like you have done not also violates 501st conduct ?? and soeme of the guys in the AC are not even 501st members your making this sound as if i have raped and killed somebody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TB-7076 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I respect everyones opinion on recasting but talking of collective bans or a blockade punishing also people who always bought and promoted original prop replicas is an emotional and illogical measure. I think it would make things even worse. Besides the 501st has no ruling concerning sourcing of costumes and there is no law in germany or anywhere else protecting unauthorized replicas of materials falling under copyrights or trademarks and intellectual property. This is a discussion of ethics and colleagueship but not laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nzjedi Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 The issue is not in copyright. You cannot tell me that in six years of 501st membership, it never occerd to you that recasting is wrong? In six years, that dealing with known recasters (SFP) is wrong? You think because you buy stolen work it gives you the right to recast it as well? I don't buy your claims of ignorance but, that is besides the point. NOW you DO know, are you going to be a man and do the right thing? and STOP selling recasts? There is NO witch hunt going on, its just artists protecting each other, and no it dosnt violate any 501st conduct rules. The AC aren't the ones stealing from each other, the AC are just a few of the people that help make this hobby possible for a lot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest skygunbro Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Ok let me clear some stuff up here. Your CO was originally sent a email asking to look into the matter regarding the items you had on ebay.Basically it started out civil and merely was just asking for his help even though we knew his hands were tied by the charter. He was very un cooperative to say the least and basically condones this behavior I guess, and not once did he say well im sorry for the original artist .... No one said EVER that they were going to block all sales to Germany..what was said and obviously taken out of context to suit your needs. What was said is that armorers /prop makers had the right to not sell to you guys and may not after they see the blatant disregard for your fellow prop maker costumer. But you guys will put the spin on it however you want ,point is you got items you recasted them..It doesnt matter if its been recasted already by someone else its still the original persons work and you did not have their permission/consent to copy it. You have admitted to making and having molds.All we are asking is for a little honor here and make your own stuff. The 501st rules are set and until they are changed are law and I understand that but have some morals..just because the rules dont say you cant doesnt mean you should. And it doesnt matter if the people being recasted are members or not stealing is stealing it makes it no worse or better if they arent in the group. And the reason no one said anything until now is we all assumed your costume pieces were from original sources it wasn't until you said you were going to start producing them is when everyone got in a huff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TD832 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 well i have heard from many ( never dealt with them myself ) that they were prity pleased with what they got from SFP after six years yes i have heard and seen many horror storys when it comes to the hobby of props they are still going on many of them thw whole story about recasting how many times has it been discused some guys take that point of view of the other way but all in all that is a personal thought and up to the guy to think what he wants to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nzjedi Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Stop skirting around the subject, will you be a man and destroy the helmet moulds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest skygunbro Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 SFP is whole other story the owner is a pedophile that fled the US on child molestation and child porn charges..not to mention most of the items offered on their site are recasts of other peoples work the BARC helmet is one of them. So putting your money in the pocket of a pedophile recaster has its own set of moral problems. Anyway we can go back and forth all day long you either get or dont get the point.....I'm done wiht this I was just trying to let people know on behalf of the AC that this was BS and should not be tolerated. I would think a long time member and prop maker yourself you of all people would understand the frustration when someone copies your stuff after you invested alot of time and money into something. And no one claims ownership to the characters we sculpt or the parts to costumes we makes they ultimately belong to Lucas but as artists the work does belong to us as they are artistic interpretations of lucas characters. All the Ac is is a info share group for armorers prop makers to share info on who not to sell to and the reasons why.If the armors that belong to the AC read the info and still decide to do business then thats their business no one in the AC dictates who people can and cant sell to.If someone decides not to sell to the whole country of Germany that their right to do so. I think knowing all the time and hard work and money that goes into developing these items for you guys to wear to see these no talent hacks just pour rubber over them is a slap in the face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TD832 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 should i ask for permission to do the barc armor ( since i am the only one who has done the first full barc ) as far as i am aware nobody else is doing the helmets and armor at this moment sorry jason but the tactics that your AC uses are threating bullying mobing and a downright witchunt i have read your posts over on the clone empire you could have talked to me normal and not start straight off with those douchbags idiots etc etc i will not be bullyed or threatend or mobed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steelblitz Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Jason, For any of the recast BARC parts, do the right thing and stop reproducing them, selling them, and destroy the molds. You are embarrasing yourself, your garrison, and those in your region that support the original sculptors. I for one will be extremely cautious if someone from Germany approaches me to buy something that I make, knowing there is blatant recasting being allowed in the German garrison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nzjedi Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 should i ask for permission to do the barc armor No, but you should make it yourself and not copy other peoples work. and I'm asking you AGAIN will you man up and destroy your illegal helmet mould? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TB-7076 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 SGB I understand ypur point I'd be tha last one to tell people who they have to sell stuff or not. But you probably also see that a lockdown achieves nothing and probably would just result in the opposite of what was intended. On legion and garrison level - as you already stated yourself - there are no means to control or punish activities outside the legion's jurisdiction. Members may decide to ignore recasts and educate about it but that's that - and people do. If you remove access to original replicas it is more likely more people have to go for recasts. In my eyes the wrong signal but of course your choice! I think those who look for quality will always buy original stuff - that's probably poor consolation but the only thing I can come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nzjedi Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 What Jason is doing, constitutes theft. It violates the legion membership charter. It is that simple, and Steelblitz is absolutely correct in that it's an embarrassment. The best thing to do would be to show photographic evidence of the destruction of the moulds, and a public apology. Article VI - Code of Conduct ...Acting in a threatening or violent manner, sexual harassment or misconduct, theft, and illegal substance abuse are all prohibited as they are unacceptable behavior. This applies to members in or out of costume at 501st events or otherwise. Members who engage in such conduct may be subject to disciplinary action, including expulsion from the 501st Legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest skygunbro Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 should i ask for permission to do the barc armor ( since i am the only one who has done the first full barc ) as far as i am aware nobody else is doing the helmets and armor at this moment sorry jason but the tactics that your AC uses are threating bullying mobing and a downright witchunt i have read your posts over on the clone empire you could have talked to me normal and not start straight off with those douchbags idiots etc etc i will not be bullyed or threatend or mobed Ok quit being the victim here...the AC is not bullying anyone..we have the right to protect and call out or in to question anyone who is doing wrong your trying to turn this into a your being picked on... Not once did I not anyone else threaten anyone .We simply said to people involved cut the crap...we can look out for our stuff as well as each others all we want.. And no one need permission to make anything you wanna do a BARC go ahead...we the makers are just asking you dont recast the stuff..is that so hard to understand You are NOT the victim here the people who spent alot of time and money developing their items that you are copying are the victims... I have ALL the correspondence between you i and your CO and none on my part was threatening..did I have harsh words for your actions and his attitude towards the situation yes I did but dont put the"IM THE VICTIM SPIN" on this cause your not. Well its easy you want this to end destroy the stuff you recasted that you yourself admitted to doing and having molds and dont sell other peoples stuff its that simple. Again for the last time YOU did something wrong not me or the the people in the AC...YOU ARE NOT THE VICTIM HERE... Also just because no one is currently making the armor,helmets doesnt mean you have the right to take someones work and reproduce it....Do I even really need to explain that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest EVO3 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 The only people that will ever understand how wrong it is to recast are the prop builders themselves. That will never change. The "average Joe" doesnt realize the hard work that goes into making a prop; some more than other of course. Ive seen the hours, days, weeks and months that other prop builders (including myself) have put into one helmet. Until youve done it yourself, you will never understand. So to those of you looking in from the outside, reading this and making opinions, please realize the passion we have for the work that we do. I know i speak for most of us when i say that the work that we do is not solely done for money. It is done because we love to create; and when we see someone else take a helmet of ours and make copies without permission it always makes us think twice about what we do and why we even bother to do it. Ive had my pistols recast by SFP and i know that Mikes BARC helmet was recast by them as well. Its not a good feeling knowing that someone has taken a shortcut with your own hard labor and when you see a fellow 501st member doing the same, it really lets all the air out of your sails. Its like a losing battle that no one really cares about except for the prop builders themselves. So, thats why the AC was established. It wasnt to bully people around. It was to give us a voice and to make people understand why recasting is wrong. Contrary to what some people think, the AC has worked in curving some of the recasting that has gone on. As it stands, no one in the AC is forced not to sell to a certain state or country but the names of certain individuals and other information is provided to us so that we can make our own educated decisions on whether we should ship to a certain person or not. Jason, after seeing that you have not only recasted Mikes BARC but you have also recasted an SFP Clone pilot helmet, i to will think twice about sending anything to your country. If you cant respect us as prop builders and artists we dont need your business. Again, i dont do this for the money, i do it because i enjoy knowing that i helped someone get the helmet they always wanted. The day prop building becomes a headache for me, then im out. Now think what would happen if all the prop makers decided to quit because of recasting. I dont see uncle George running to the rescue to fill in that empty gap. Do you? Disclaimer: Its been a long day for me so if the are any spelling errors, forgive me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apophis Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 can I ask a couple questions??? if I purchase a set of MC armor... and out on a troop I bump something and lets say shatter one of my knee pads... I go home and recast from the other pad... (yeah size will be off) NOT TO SELL but to just have replacements....... would that be morally wrong??? or better yet... lets say I mod a rubies helmet... looks great... but I hate the fact that its vinyl and really easy to warp from heat and what not... so I take my modded helmet, that I did all the work on... and I make molds using that and basically recast it to a better material... is that wrong??? (I know this would never happen) but let's say I modded my rubies to the point that it was almost lancer quality... and I recast it to a different material... and I showed it off... and people offered to buy it or asked me to make them one... is that wrong??? rubies made the helmet but the mods are my work... I'm not taking anyone's side.... I feel for the armor makers for people recasting their work and making money off it... I know that sucks... but is it ever OK to recast for specific purposes like the PURELY HYPOTHETICAL situations I described above... (keep in mind I currently don't own any armor... so this isn't a 'friend of a friend' hypothetical) I am just wondering... where is the line...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest skygunbro Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Chadwick good questions i dont want to derail this topic but basically I think if you approach a maker and explain that you need to mold something that broke etc. they will prob replace the part or give you permission.But I would suggest you never just do it..its a honor thing which the current situation is a perfect example of what not to do. I hear this all the time "what if I just make some for my buddies but dont sell them"..well its still recasting and its still wrong...Most of us arent in this for the money most of the time we might make back what we have into the project and you never make back your time but if you put the money spin on it every set of knees you make or helmet you make for your buddy takes away from the original artist see what I mean? As far as modding something and making a mold it depends..most makers prop builders agree that if the item is modded or changed significantly to the point where very little if any of the original exist in the new sculpt then it would be ok to mold it. But say you add a little bondo here and there and change minor things then I think youd get in a jam. I didn't make these rules I'm just letting you know what the general consensus is from a lot of the builders all around the prop community.Basically if your not sure or have any apprehension about copying something then its best to ask or not do it. Just because a prop maker decides not to make anything anymore or offer limited pieces doesnt make it ok to recast such is the case here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apophis Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Thanks... that really helped *edit on my own* on second thought... I am not experienced enough in the area of prop building and costuming to throw my .02 into the fray.... sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dream Inspired Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 dream inspired, here to give support to what skygunbro, steelblitz. nzjedi, and evo3 have been saying. the passion that we show on this subject is as strong as the passion that we put into our work and it should never be looked at as strong arm tactics when we start trying to stick up for one of our own. the Armorer Coalition is not the mafia and it's members not being members of the 501st only means that some of us are able to speak more freely than others when it comes to confronting recasters, and that for some of us the passion for this hobby resides in the armor making and not the armor wearing. it's the recasters faulty logic that made it impossible for fans to acquire pghfett's barc helmet in the first place.... it almost seems prophetic that someone would show up on here and start trying to front like this is their helmet to sell and it's all good and people start going about their barc business like nothing ever happened... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper1389 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Look If you made them, then post pictures of your WIP. This way skygunbro, steelblitz. nzjedi, and evo3 can apologize for considering you a re-caster. It's not the point of pride here, just proof. Now if you can't show any, that you can add me to the list as I will back them up.. We can't wait to see your WIP so I can personally start to apologize Thanks for understanding the situation here by helping us understand and see the truth that you and your team made the armor from scratch. TK1389 Marcelo! Now on a happy note, not to upset any one here so I will ask a question to a joke I heard long ago... How do you say virgin in German? I'll PM the answer of what I was told for anyone that would like to hear it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SL-9135 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Its a shame this is coming into light more and more on the TB and the BARC... Seems more and more are out there. There are alot of new threads on "is this good enough" or "what armor is this". It used to be cut and dry. Now it gets muddy like Vader and Trooper. Sad to see talented folks throw in the towel as well. I have came full circle on recasting, no matter how you slice it it leads to trouble. Recasting is wrong. Personal feelings aside, this is a 501st site, and I suport the 501st as well. Information is key here, and if you have nothing to hide, then post up WIP shots. That helmet does look too close not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper1389 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 can I ask a couple questions??? if I purchase a set of MC armor... and out on a troop I bump something and lets say shatter one of my knee pads... I go home and recast from the other pad... (yeah size will be off) NOT TO SELL but to just have replacements....... would that be morally wrong??? or better yet... lets say I mod a rubies helmet... looks great... but I hate the fact that its vinyl and really easy to warp from heat and what not... so I take my modded helmet, that I did all the work on... and I make molds using that and basically recast it to a better material... is that wrong??? (I know this would never happen) but let's say I modded my rubies to the point that it was almost lancer quality... and I recast it to a different material... and I showed it off... and people offered to buy it or asked me to make them one... is that wrong??? rubies made the helmet but the mods are my work... I'm not taking anyone's side.... I feel for the armor makers for people recasting their work and making money off it... I know that sucks... but is it ever OK to recast for specific purposes like the PURELY HYPOTHETICAL situations I described above... (keep in mind I currently don't own any armor... so this isn't a 'friend of a friend' hypothetical) I am just wondering... where is the line...? I don't see any problem with that as long as you keep it for you and you only. Now how much does this make sence??? Are you going to spend 2 or 3 hundred dollars just casting a part to replace that you could have paid a couple of dollars for it??? Or cast a rubies helmet after making mods and putting countless hours and spending a few more hundred dollars more, that do it, I think it's a waste of your time and money to do something like this. That's why there are guys like SGB, Evo, PGHFETT etc... that make quality products at a reasonable price for UNCLE George to call on us to show up at events to make him look good because the things he has does not compare to what we make. But if you can afford a 600+ helmet, then you are the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthnova Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Recasting is the wrong way for sure, but to punish a entire garrison for recasting???? Not all germans are intend to make a mold from props that are bought in USA to reproduce and sell them. Some of us germans only wants to do a cool SW costume, so I hope that we will get your art work in the future also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apophis Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I don't see any problem with that as long as you keep it for you and you only. Now how much does this make sence??? Are you going to spend 2 or 3 hundred dollars just casting a part to replace that you could have paid a couple of dollars for it??? Or cast a rubies helmet after making mods and putting countless hours and spending a few more hundred dollars more, that do it, I think it's a waste of your time and money to do something like this. That's why there are guys like SGB, Evo, PGHFETT etc... that make quality products at a reasonable price for UNCLE George to call on us to show up at events to make him look good because the things he has does not compare to what we make. But if you can afford a 600+ helmet, then you are the man. excellent points..... As I said I am new at this and just wanted as much info as possible... thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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