GML Question on WTF Helmet

[KaiserintheHood]

GML here. I'm hoping the DCA's or other command staff can provide some insight here. Of all the Scout helmets available, how is the WTF helmet still approvable? Even when this kit is built as intended, it does not adhere to the Basic requirement of "Helmet is true to the shape of the original screen used helmet." It looks like it was sat on after being in a hot car. With this kit having been approved so many times in the past I feel obligated to keep approving it on new members even though in my opinion it should not pass the Basic level. It seems to me, if the Black Series helmet cannot be approved, why should this one? Not to beat a dead horse on the BS helmet but this one is more true to the original shape than WTF. 

[Gree23]

GML here. I'm hoping the DCA's or other command staff can provide some insight here. Of all the Scout helmets available, how is the WTF helmet still approvable? Even when this kit is built as intended, it does not adhere to the Basic requirement of "Helmet is true to the shape of the original screen used helmet." It looks like it was sat on after being in a hot car. With this kit having been approved so many times in the past I feel obligated to keep approving it on new members even though in my opinion it should not pass the Basic level. It seems to me, if the Black Series helmet cannot be approved, why should this one? Not to beat a dead horse on the BS helmet but this one is more true to the original shape than WTF. 

Agreed

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[BikerScout007]

Hey Dan

Here's a fun fact -- command were mere weeks away from banning WTF armor completely before "The Mandalorian" came out, so it's definitely something we have talked about.  The entire set has issues -- the shoulder bells are completely wrong, the knees have the wrong pattern on them, the chest piece is way too big... and yes, the helmet is really, really off.

Now when we want to discourage the use of particular armor or armor pieces, we start by disallowing them for Level 2, and hoping that will trickle back to Level 1.  Here is a current list of the items we've pinpointed as being unsatisfactory for L2 (at least for the ROTJ Scout and most others except the Mando Scout).

As you can see, most of the WTF kit is on there.  But as you have said, people are still buying the kit and getting approved for L1, even with that helmet.  With Walt's kit in particular, it seems a lot of folks get pulled into his Facebook group and all the hype there before they ever make it over here and realize all the issues with it.  When we were doing Zoom armor parties during the pandemic, it never failed that at every single one, someone was having an issue building the WTF helmet.  So we recognize there are a lot of issues there.  I mean, even the folks at "The Mandalorian" didn't use the helmet.  Somehow they missed the knees but realized that helmet didn't cut the mustard.

So why hasn't it been banned already?  Well folks have to remember, this hyper accurate Scout trooper armor thing only really started within the last 6-7 years - mainly because of RS Props, EFX and Strider/CFO kits.  Before then we all had to deal with "pretty good".  I mean, there was a time when the Kropserkel helmet was considered on the close to accurate side!  Not to mention the MLC.  The holy grail of helmets back in the day was the Lone Wolf, and they were close to impossible to get.  

Now we are swimming in hyper accurate gear and with that, standards have been tightened.  The Black Series helmet looks great from a distance, but falls down for a myriad of reasons, reasons even the WTF helmet doesn't have (like cut out ears for instance).  

That's a lot of words to say... we started to and then stopped because of the TV show (I know they didn't use the helmet, but people tend to buy whole kits from vendors), but I think now is a good time to open that discussion again.  Thanks for bringing it back up.  

I would love to hear from anyone that has thoughts on this matter.  Please post below.   The Armor Team, DCAs and Command will discuss this as well.

 

 

[iceknyght]

It is crazy to think, only 10-20 years ago, the best costumes were basically "ok to bad" by today's standards!  Which opens up a whole other problem with grandfathered in costumes, IMO.

I do agree, Level 1 should be pretty accessible, but not at the detriment of overall accuracy.  The slightly wrong style sticker or slightly off color is one thing, a helmet that looks like it's melted and only vaguely looks like the actual prop is another.  Which also brings me to another question, why do prop makers (especially in this day and age) continue to sell outdated/wrong pieces?  There are enough reference materials now that they could re-tool their bucks.  I know that means more overall work, but selling inaccurate stuff seems like taking advantage of those not knowing enough info when they go to buy armor.  Especially if their goal is 501st approval.  And in some cases (not really with TB's, but other kits, especially low-volume costumes), the inaccurate pieces are all that available...

Also, I feel like some detachments are far too lax and others are far too strict on even their basic level approvals.  I do feel like the Pathfinders are right in the middle, for the most part (which I think is a good thing).  I strive to make my costumes the best that I can.  Even update them as time goes on and new stuff becomes known and/or available.  I also know tons of people that have no desire to be "perfect" and just want to be apart of the 501st, so the basic of the basic (and built as cheap as they can) is all they strive for, which is fine (assuming the basic level is already pretty good).  I am glad that the 501st has options for multiple types of people.

I do think that if I was GML (which, you probably wouldn't want me as GML honestly, LOL), I would definitely not want to approve a WTF Scout as a RotJ Scout.  Even with a different helmet.  As a Mando Scout (as long as the rest was done right), sure!  There are just too many inaccuracies for me, IMO, for the RotJ version.

[Gree23]

It is crazy to think, only 10-20 years ago, the best costumes were basically "ok to bad" by today's standards!  Which opens up a whole other problem with grandfathered in costumes, IMO.

I do agree, Level 1 should be pretty accessible, but not at the detriment of overall accuracy.  The slightly wrong style sticker or slightly off color is one thing, a helmet that looks like it's melted and only vaguely looks like the actual prop is another.  Which also brings me to another question, why do prop makers (especially in this day and age) continue to sell outdated/wrong pieces?  There are enough reference materials now that they could re-tool their bucks.  I know that means more overall work, but selling inaccurate stuff seems like taking advantage of those not knowing enough info when they go to buy armor.  Especially if their goal is 501st approval.  And in some cases (not really with TB's, but other kits, especially low-volume costumes), the inaccurate pieces are all that available...

Also, I feel like some detachments are far too lax and others are far too strict on even their basic level approvals.  I do feel like the Pathfinders are right in the middle, for the most part (which I think is a good thing).  I strive to make my costumes the best that I can.  Even update them as time goes on and new stuff becomes known and/or available.  I also know tons of people that have no desire to be "perfect" and just want to be apart of the 501st, so the basic of the basic (and built as cheap as they can) is all they strive for, which is fine (assuming the basic level is already pretty good).  I am glad that the 501st has options for multiple types of people.
I do think that if I was GML (which, you probably wouldn't want me as GML honestly, LOL), I would definitely not want to approve a WTF Scout as a RotJ Scout.  Even with a different helmet.  As a Mando Scout (as long as the rest was done right), sure!  There are just too many inaccuracies for me, IMO, for the RotJ version.

To answer one of your questions, they keep selling because we keep buying and approving these costumes. If we denied them due to the inaccurate nature of the part, it would force the prop maker to either retool his stuff or stop selling. But as long as we are still approving their stuff, they are gonna spend the money, time, or energy into making their stuff more accurate

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[iceknyght]

5 minutes ago, Gree23 said:

To answer one of your questions, they keep selling because we keep buying and approving these costumes. If we denied them due to the inaccurate nature of the part, it would force the prop maker to either retool his stuff or stop selling. But as long as we are still approving their stuff, they are gonna spend the money, time, or energy into making their stuff more accurate

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True.  That's a good point.  

[KaiserintheHood]

45 minutes ago, BikerScout007 said:

Here's a fun fact -- command were mere weeks away from banning WTF armor completely before "The Mandalorian" came out, so it's definitely something we have talked about. 

Dang it! Thanks for that history lesson, Mickey. I'm glad to know it was at least on the table of discussion not too long ago. I think it is definitely worth opening the discussion back up. What I tend to tell people is that WTF is like the Walmart of troopers. Lots of stuff, but not great quality. And unlike Walmart, not so great prices for what you get but that's besides the point. The only reason I would tell someone to order that kit is if they want to do the Mando Scout, but absolutely not the helmet. 

My first kit was a WTF Scout back in 2018 or 19 and as you said it somehow came up first for me on the internet and sucked me in unfortunately. My take on the matter, if we can't ban the whole kit because of the TV show then we should at least say no more to the helmet as that was very obviously not used in the production and not accurate to the movie either.

[BikerScout007]

Folks, here's something else to keep in mind...

As much as it pains me to admit this, as a Detachment, we have very little power in the grand scheme of things.  Sure, we write the CRLs, but first they get filtered through the LMO.  And then the GMLs can approve anyone they want really.  The Garrisons hold all the power when it comes to that.  Sure, some of them come to us for advice on the 501st.com GML forum, but I can't tell you how many times one of those discussions has ended in "well that's nice, but we are going to approve this anyway."

Additionally, we live on a big planet, with many different Garrisons and Outposts that have different feelings when it comes to accuracy.  Particularly when cost comes into play.   It always shocks me what gets approved, even when the CRL says otherwise.

As a Detachment we have banned certain "toys" (for lack of a better word) from first level approval (so the Kenner blaster, the black series helmet, the Rubies etc), but I'm not aware of any propmaker's kit that's been banned.  But then again, there hasn't really been one that was this far out of bounds (though the Kropserkel armor is pretty close).  

45 minutes ago, iceknyght said:

Which also brings me to another question, why do prop makers (especially in this day and age) continue to sell outdated/wrong pieces?  There are enough reference materials now that they could re-tool their bucks.  I know that means more overall work, but selling inaccurate stuff seems like taking advantage of those not knowing enough info when they go to buy armor.  Especially if their goal is 501st approval.  And in some cases (not really with TB's, but other kits, especially low-volume costumes), the inaccurate pieces are all that available...

This one is pretty frustrating to me as well, especially in this case, as Walt and I had discussions about his pieces before he started offering them for sale and I gave him all my concerns.  At the time, RS Props, EFX and Strider were all available so there was plenty of examples of great armor on the market.  But yeah with all the information we have now (plenty of it available on the Scoutopedia), any armor maker should be able to offer pretty accurate gear. 

I will say in his defense, recently Walt approached me about updating his stuff, I'm not sure what the status of that is currently.  

[iceknyght]

1 minute ago, BikerScout007 said:

Additionally, we live on a big planet, with many different Garrisons and Outposts that have different feelings when it comes to accuracy.  Particularly when cost comes into play.   It always shocks me what gets approved, even when the CRL says otherwise.

I totally get it.  The bigger an organization is (especially on a global scale), the more stuff like this will happen.  There's only so much you as the detachment can do.  One thing I have been wondering about lately, and it's probably a discussion for another time/thread, but what happens if a GML approves just an AWFUL costume?  Can the approval be revoked?  Can the GML face repercussions?  Through the different groups I'm in, I see a Buch of "yay, I'm approved!" posts and think to myself, "how?"  Not to sound elitist, but just bewilderment as it doesn't even conform to the CRL's...  Why have CRL's if they aren't going to be followed anyway?

 

7 minutes ago, BikerScout007 said:

This one is pretty frustrating to me as well, especially in this case, as Walt and I had discussions about his pieces before he started offering them for sale and I gave him all my concerns.  At the time, RS Props, EFX and Strider were all available so there was plenty of examples of great armor on the market.  But yeah with all the information we have now (plenty of it available on the Scoutopedia), any armor maker should be able to offer pretty accurate gear. 

I will say in his defense, recently Walt approached me about updating his stuff, I'm not sure what the status of that is currently.  

That last part is good to hear...  At least he's thinking about it.  There are a TON of people that have their first interaction with SW costuming stuff be his FB page and it would be nice if his stuff was up to par!  I know on his newer stuff he's been making, they seem to be more accurate, so there is hope!

[BikerScout007]

4 minutes ago, iceknyght said:

I totally get it.  The bigger an organization is (especially on a global scale), the more stuff like this will happen.  There's only so much you as the detachment can do.  One thing I have been wondering about lately, and it's probably a discussion for another time/thread, but what happens if a GML approves just an AWFUL costume?  Can the approval be revoked?  Can the GML face repercussions?  Through the different groups I'm in, I see a Buch of "yay, I'm approved!" posts and think to myself, "how?"  Not to sound elitist, but just bewilderment as it doesn't even conform to the CRL's...  Why have CRL's if they aren't going to be followed anyway?

I mean... that's the million dollar question.  I can tell you that it's the number one complaint I hear amongst Detachment Leaders.

As for revoking a costume, that's an LMO question.  Maybe @Hask would have some insight.  

[Gree23]

Something I have been hearing come up more and more is why dont we just turn over approvals to the Detachment instead of the GML. Maybe change this up, and the "pre-approvals" go through the GML and the the Detachment does official approval??? The Detachment has the specialized interest in the costume and the expertise.

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[Dart]

7 minutes ago, Gree23 said:

Something I have been hearing come up more and more is why dont we just turn over approvals to the Detachment instead of the GML. Maybe change this up, and the "pre-approvals" go through the GML and the the Detachment does official approval??? The Detachment has the specialized interest in the costume and the expertise.

That's been a hot debate in the past. Some feel that the dets are too picky and others don't like the idea of turning approvals over to someone who isn't "local". As an example, the Rebel Legion does exactly this as they have panels of costume judges that handle everything. Of course, as in the movies, the RL is significantly smaller a group than the 501st, and the dets do all of the approvals might be too much.

[Gree23]

That's been a hot debate in the past. Some feel that the dets are too picky and others don't like the idea of turning approvals over to someone who isn't "local". As an example, the Rebel Legion does exactly this as they have panels of costume judges that handle everything. Of course, as in the movies, the RL is significantly smaller a group than the 501st, and the dets do all of the approvals might be too much.

Yeah but they would be standard across the board. If it came down to a "we need to verify" something then the GML could step in and confirm for the detachments. But even then "having someone local" doesnt mean anything. We have 7 squads and 4 GML, and 2 are in the same squad. So how local is local really? The GML would still handle the DB stuff and as a new member you would submit your approval to the GML. So i would submit to the Detachment, get approved, and then turn around and push that to the GML for DB update. Sometimes we GML have no idea about a costume and still have to turn to the Detachment, so it would just cut the middle man and let the Detachment handle upfront. I love my team and we are good, but it does make it hard when a costume that doesnt look good gets approved, and then one of our applicants uses that as a "well look this got approved there so it should get approved here"

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[BikerScout007]

50 minutes ago, Gree23 said:

Yeah but they would be standard across the board. If it came down to a "we need to verify" something then the GML could step in and confirm for the detachments. But even then "having someone local" doesnt mean anything. We have 7 squads and 4 GML, and 2 are in the same squad. So how local is local really? The GML would still handle the DB stuff and as a new member you would submit your approval to the GML. So i would submit to the Detachment, get approved, and then turn around and push that to the GML for DB update. Sometimes we GML have no idea about a costume and still have to turn to the Detachment, so it would just cut the middle man and let the Detachment handle upfront. I love my team and we are good, but it does make it hard when a costume that doesnt look good gets approved, and then one of our applicants uses that as a "well look this got approved there so it should get approved here"

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I mean essentially you would be asking the Council (made up of GCOs mainly) to vote to take away power from themselves.  No matter the merits for or against, it's not something that's likely to happen and we are all better off trying to figure out ways to work within the system we have.  

[Hask]

1 hour ago, BikerScout007 said:

I mean... that's the million dollar question.  I can tell you that it's the number one complaint I hear amongst Detachment Leaders.

As for revoking a costume, that's an LMO question.  Maybe @Hask would have some insight.  

It has been done but its not something we like to do unless there are glaring deviations to the CRL!

[Hask]

1 hour ago, Gree23 said:

Something I have been hearing come up more and more is why dont we just turn over approvals to the Detachment instead of the GML. Maybe change this up, and the "pre-approvals" go through the GML and the the Detachment does official approval??? The Detachment has the specialized interest in the costume and the expertise.

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To do that would require a Council vote and most Council members are not going to vote on something that will upset their GMLs!

[iceknyght]

6 minutes ago, Hask said:

It has been done but its not something we like to do unless there are glaring deviations to the CRL!

Good to know!  Does just the costume get removed or does the GML get in trouble as well?

I think the overall system works fine, for the most part.  It's that the organization has become so big (and having so many Garrisons/Squads/Detachments/etc) that there are bound to be some costumes getting through that shouldn't.  I would imagine, it's a pretty low percentage at this point.  The pre-approval process is also something that can definitely help people that either have no idea what they are doing and/or not much local help.

[Hask]

Normally the member is given time to make corrections first but no charges to my knowledge has ever been raised against a GML for not being very good! Its very very rare for an LMO to step in and from what I recall its only been twice in my time in the Legion!

[Chopper]

Folks, just a note to stay on course, since the original topic is about approving the WTF helmet and the issues related to it. As Mickey said, the armory team is currently discussing the issue right now. Please stand by for more info to come.

General questions about costume approvals, revocations, GMLs, LMOs, and changing the current process etc. are best made in a different thread. We are extremely fortunate to have LMO @Hask as a resource on our forums, but I do suggest those general questions be made in a post here: https://forum.501stpathfinders.com/forum/133-command-team/

[BikerScout007]

6 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Folks, just a note to stay on course, since the original topic is about approving the WTF helmet and the issues related to it. As Mickey said, the armory team is currently discussing the issue right now. Please stand by for more info to come.

General questions about costume approvals, revocations, GMLs, LMOs, and changing the current process etc. are best made in a different thread. We are extremely fortunate to have LMO @Hask as a resource on our forums, but I do suggest those general questions be made in a post here: https://forum.501stpathfinders.com/forum/133-command-team/

Thanks Corey - I'm just as guilty as everyone else in that regard so I will do my best to stay on target!

[Hask]

Apologies just responding as I was asked 😉

[Chopper]

17 minutes ago, Hask said:

Apologies just responding as I was asked 😉

Of course, not an issue at all. Just trying to be proactive.

[Chopper]

From what I can tell, we've heard from two GMLs so far about the WTF helmet. I would be curious to hear the opinions of other GMLs, if they're reading this.

Also note, I edited the subj line slightly to make it clearer as to what's being asked.

[KaiserintheHood]

Thanks Corey. I'll probably send the question in to the GML forum as well but I wanted to hear what the detachment's decision on this was first. To me, it sounds like another "at the GML's discretion" type of situations but that makes it difficult when not all GMLs carry out the same decisions. And to be clear I am mostly asking about the decision to approve/not approve the helmet, the armor I think is fine for Basic in most situations.

[Chopper]

Oh, the det is absolutely discussing the matter right now, so stay tuned for more info on that front. Just to clarify, what I meant in my statement was more of a question as to whether other GMLs are feeling the same frustrations about the accuracy of the helmet, as has been expressed by yourself and Jordan.