Scout Officer?

[ThatThingOnTheFloor]

So, I don't really know where to post this. Please moderate accordingly.

 

 

I'm looking at building an officer for my secondary costume. I've posted over on the IOC boards with this query, and now I'd like to see how folks around here feel about it.

 

I'm clearly putting entirely too much thought into this.

 

I'd like to make the officer costume match my TBID, like a "Class A" Uniform, if you will. We've seen Clones in TCW Cartoon don black hats in lieu of their buckets, and know there was an officer in Black on Endor, in the bunker. We saw one of few salutes in the films on Endor, after a Scout received orders from another armored Scout.

 

I've always operated under the assumption that the olive drab uniform was for the Army (ala Veers), and black/gray for the Navy. My logic is such: the TK Corps would be akin to the Marine Corps(Thus "Dress Blacks/Grays); you wouldn't station a Scout aboard a Space Station or starship. (They're ground-pounders, thus Army. I'd liken them to Rangers (Hooah!) in my brain. Could also argue they're more akin to Marine Force Recon, thus dress black (which would be backed up by what we've seen on screen)

 

I know I could pick whatever uniform suited my fancy, but I'd like to go deeper. Plus, this'll be fun to sort out!

 

Which kind of brings me around to rank insignia, if any of you have knowledge there. We have rank stripes on our tanks, but does anyone know what those correspond to? I'd argue the most should be Lieutenant (but I really can't bring myself to don a set of butterbars), or possibly Captain. Would it make more sense to wear an Enlisted rank?

 

 

So, if anyone's willing to, I'd like to sit down with the CRLs, and maybe sort out something that agrees with everything for an unofficial Class A uniform for scouts.

[Retrofire]

I have a TIE reserve that I'm working on and I've often thought of wearing my black cap when my scout bucket is off. I'm not sure if anyone has thought about how the Pathfinders are organized and how their divisions would be broken out. I've often thought that the Pathfinders would be more akin to a SpecOps group that can work alone or in small squads. Looking at ROTJ the scouts make up a very small contingent compared to stormtroopers so that makes me think that they are highly trained and specialized.

 

The only problem I see is that I haven't seen anything in the canon, or non-canon, that identifies a Pathfinder Officer per se. The JRS 181st officer uniform has documentation to back it up but again I haven't seen anything for the armored detachments. I think I would be hard to define a CRL without some sense of how to proceed with the uniform. General Veers is defined as an Army General so again I would think that a TB or TK dress uniform would be akin to his with possibly some variation that identifies organization.

 

I think this is an interesting idea and I don't see any reason why the command staff wouldn't look into it.

[bjsavage7]

I'd recommend black staff or warrant.

[BikerScout007]

BJ is 100% right. We would most likely be black, since that's what TKs wear when not in armor --as seen in Episode IV. The officer talking to Vader ("Holding her is dangerous!") is a TK out of armor.

 

And since Scout troopers are a division of the Stormtrooper corps, we'd most likely wear black too. I wear a black officers cap when I dont have my bucket on.

[pvicta]

I'm following this with interest

 

I was looking up something similar to this on google the other day, and found there is not a lot out there

 

Paul

[ThatThingOnTheFloor]

I can dig it.

 

Do we have any information gauging what the rank stripes on our tanks correlate to?

[Retrofire]

I spent some time researching this and couldn't find any correlation to any known imperial rank structure. Searching through Wookiepedia I found this article (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rank_insignia_of_the_Galactic_Empire/old_version) that had an interesting insight on armored rank.

 

"Stormtroopers apparently use the same rank system as the Imperial Army, but rarely wear any type of outward insignia. It is mentioned that Stormtroopers most likely have an identification scanner, built into their helmets, which can determine the rank and seniority of other stormtroopers. This does not explain, however, the colored shoulder pads used by Stormtroopers on Tatooine. Also, in the Battle of Hoth, a stormtrooper is seen wearing the insignia of an Army Captain on his armor. It is assumed that such insignia display is for the benefit of non-stormtrooper personnel.

 

In the higher ranks of the Stormtroopers, it can be reasonably assumed that the senior Stormtrooper officers do not wear the Battle Armor on a regular basis, thus a different uniform, for the more casual "office" setting, would most likely be worn. This explains a number of Imperial officers, seen in the feature films directing groups of Stormtroopers, who appear to be wearing solid black uniforms with rank badges. Such personnel are most likely Stormtrooper commanders whose daily duties do not necessitate the regular wearing of battle armor."

 

The Scout that captures princess Leia has four stripes on his tank as shown here:

and again here:

 

I believe that this is one of those items that worked because it was added for the screen effect and not so much to create a rank structure per se. A thought I had would be that the tank stripes might possibly be a form of specialty identification such as medic, EOD, sniper, etc. Looking at the TIE fighter squadron they have a CRL for a TIE reserve pilot that also has no rank structure and for that matter nor do the pilots. I do think the scouts would wear the black uniforms as previously mentioned when not wearing armor with the appropriate rank badge.

[Bubonos]

I wear a black officer hat when not in helmet at cons and stuff where we may work a table.

 

[ThatThingOnTheFloor]

Great info Retrofire, thanks for looking into that!

 

I like the way you think concerning the stripes. I carry a scoped DLT-19 with my kit. I wonder if we'll ever dig in and unofficially decide what stripes mean what. Obviously no canonical evidence to back the claims, but would still be a nice detail. I've toyed with the notion of making a medic bag or a recon droid prop from time to time.

 

Black will be the way to go for the uniform. Since the Trooper Corps could most reasonably be considered a department of the Navy, (and we have no known enlisted rank insignia to wear on a uniform) I would deduce Lieutenant Junior Grade would be the highest plausible rank a trooper in armor would attain. Nevermind the fact that we've got a known Captain (Rex) and Commander (Cody) in armor throughout the Clone Wars. They'd be in charge of an entire regiment, batallion, etc.

 

Ensign or Warrant Officer are quite appealing, though. Judging by the descriptions on the WO CRL (and BJSavage's advice), I'd reason that would be the most plausible uniform to create. Will consult further on the IOC forums, now that we've got a pretty good direction.

 

 

Thanks, guys! It's been a fun one so far!

 

 

 

 

[BikerScout007]

Great! Let us know what you come up with

[Shada]

As a newbie, I'm finding this an interesting conversation. It makes me wonder if there are canonical (or at least plausible speculation) explanations for other markings?

For example, is the gray rectangle on the chest a functional part of the armour or an identification marker? Could all the Endor Scouts be part of Grey Squadron, suggesting that other Scouts deployed elsewhere have other colours? And could the helmet fish hook decal mean something about squads, ships they're deployed from or ranks?

Finally, as I've been assembling my tank, I've wondered what it holds? I assume it's not speeder bike fuel, but is it an air tank or an Imperial Camelbak?

 

 

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[Mandalorean]

I concur that a black uniform would be the most appropriate.

Caps in armour disturbs me though... <shudder>

 

 

Andy

[BikerScout007]

I concur that a black uniform would be the most appropriate.

Caps in armour disturbs me though...

 

 

Andy

 

Yeah but they cover up that helmet hair nicely

[Mandalorean]

Yeah but they cover up that helmet hair nicely

 

Don't need to worry about that if you keep your helmet on.

No bucket - no armour.

[Guest assimilate]

plus cap in armour would be mixed dress and as such against imperial regulations

[ThatThingOnTheFloor]

I concur that a black uniform would be the most appropriate.

Caps in armour disturbs me though... <shudder>

 

 

Andy

 

 

We've seen Clones on screen with no buckets, and caps on with armor in the cartoon. Last season, in the officer/nco club on Coruscant. Technically an informal setting, but it's on screen nonetheless.

 

Just saying.

 

I agree, though. Know plenty of first sergeants who'd bust up any of their boys for wearing class A cover in battle dress.

 

Kind of muddying the line a bit between real world knowledge/experience vs. screen accuracy a bit, but aren't I doing so with essentially creating a class a uniform?

 

I am broken.

 

 

 

Slightly back on topic though, what do you guys think of LT j.g. Vs Warrant Officer?

[BikerScout007]

Don't need to worry about that if you keep your helmet on.

No bucket - no armour.

 

Oh damn, Cap'n Phasma on deck y'all!

[Retrofire]

We've seen Clones on screen with no buckets, and caps on with armor in the cartoon. Last season, in the officer/nco club on Coruscant. Technically an informal setting, but it's on screen nonetheless.

 

Just saying.

 

I agree, though. Know plenty of first sergeants who'd bust up any of their boys for wearing class A cover in battle dress.

 

Kind of muddying the line a bit between real world knowledge/experience vs. screen accuracy a bit, but aren't I doing so with essentially creating a class a uniform?

 

I am broken.

 

 

 

Slightly back on topic though, what do you guys think of LT j.g. Vs Warrant Officer?

 

I don't see any issue with wearing the black cap when in armor. I used to see my stepdad with his cover on in battle dress when he doffed his bucket to keep the sun off his dome and he was a Marine MSGT. I think we're assuming that the black cap is for class-A dress based on the IOC CRLs but I don't necessarily think that the IOC represents all class-A dress. I think that most of those represent duty uniforms much like the kahki's or BDUs the Navy wears during shipboard operations. There are many variations of duty uniforms that the military uses and I'm sure it's the same with our Canadian, British, New Zealand, Australian and European counterparts. What I mean is that it doesn't make sense that the Imperial Military only has armor and class-A dress for their personnel.

 

Looking at some more evidence it's slightly confusing to see that the Snowtroopers use rank bars and they are not seen in any other armor. Since we only see the back of the AT-AT drivers on Hoth there's no way to verify if they are wearing rank bars which would be interesting on a continuity basis. Only the Snowtrooper Commander indicates rank and based on the information from "Star Wars Essential Guide to Warfare" it's a Lieutenant rank.

 

So now it gets a bit confusing. The staff officer here with Vader is assumed to be a Stormtrooper officer but I cannot find any associated rank structure in my research that matches his rank bar.

Note that he is also wearing two code cylinders which alone indicate the rank of Commander based on the reference above.

 

Further research on Wookiepedia revealed this statement "The rank of Commander for the Stormtrooper Corps, when in officer attire, was indicated by four blue squares on the left and two red squares on the right, with two cylinders." It identified ANH as the reference but I don't remember where it would have been shown. The officer that asks TK421 why he's not at his post is identified as Lieutenant Treidum so that's not the reference. Bottom line is that I don't know where this reference was found.

 

As I see it we do not have sufficient canonical data to indicate what the troopers wore as part of their duty dress so it's really all conjecture. I do think that the troopers would have worn the black uniform and service cap as part of their out of armor dress but as for rank structure we just don't have the data to make a good choice. We know that if we are attending a canonical event we abide by the CRL completely with no additions or changes but we have a certain amount of freedom when at a non-canonical event such as carrying DLT-19s (or other weapons) wearing the black officer caps and so on. We can also check with our garrison GML and CO as well as the individual detachment command staff as to what is allowable and reasonable. We all have a love of this community or we wouldn't be doing this and spending what we do on it and I'm sure we all want to represent well and that's what it's all about right "bad guys doing good"?

 

This is a great discussion and I'd love to hear more and what others in the detachment think!

[Bubonos]

 

 

We've seen Clones on screen with no buckets, and caps on with armor in the cartoon. Last season, in the officer/nco club on Coruscant. Technically an informal setting, but it's on screen nonetheless.

 

Just saying.

 

I agree, though. Know plenty of first sergeants who'd bust up any of their boys for wearing class A cover in battle dress.

 

Kind of muddying the line a bit between real world knowledge/experience vs. screen accuracy a bit, but aren't I doing so with essentially creating a class a uniform?

 

I am broken.

 

 

 

Slightly back on topic though, what do you guys think of LT j.g. Vs Warrant Officer?

TCW was what came to mind for me as well. Armored soldiers in hats on screen = cannon from what Disney told us. This isn't the real military, its a club where we play dress up. Besides, when working a table in armor, I feel it polite to bucket off to speak to fans or potential members. I'm sure there have been a few times most of us were at our con table posing for pics, look up and be the only trooper there. I will flip my visor to talk but I will take a break and take my bucket and baklava off, throw on my cap and have a seat. Just keep my bucket on display on the table till a pic is requested or I'm done with my break. I see tks with caps or berets as well. The pilots shouldn't have all the fun anyway 😉

[BikerScout007]

TCW was what came to mind for me as well. Armored soldiers in hats on screen = cannon from what Disney told us. This isn't the real military, its a club where we play dress up. Besides, when working a table in armor, I feel it polite to bucket off to speak to fans or potential members. I'm sure there have been a few times most of us were at our con table posing for pics, look up and be the only trooper there. I will flip my visor to talk but I will take a break and take my bucket and baklava off, throw on my cap and have a seat. Just keep my bucket on display on the table till a pic is requested or I'm done with my break. I see tks with caps or berets as well. The pilots shouldn't have all the fun anyway 😉

 

Same buddy, sometimes you gotta switch over to the table and taking off the bucket and popping on the cap seems the best way to maintain some of the illusion

[ThatThingOnTheFloor]

Not gonna lie, there's been times I wished I had some soft cover for taking breaks from the backdrop or switching over to the table. To me, it just looks kinda... off to see a trooper with no bucket, and soft cover on. But, it IS canon!

 

Officers tend to get ignored pretty easily at events, large and small. Most of the time, they get asked to TAKE the picture instead of pose for it. To me, this would be the costume I wear AT conventions and such where there is a table to work. ESPECIALLY if we're short-staffed, could easily switch between the table and backdrop in a pinch.

 

Also not gonna lie, it would certainly allow me to actually ride my motorcycle to troops without concern of "Boy I hope my belt or boot holster don't crack again, while all jammed up in my saddlebag..." Just roll that sucker up and ride on.

 

 

Since blasters are optional for an Officer, I'll make a holster suitable for the Scout holdout, and carry it to less-formal troops.

 

 

 

So, I know it's not the military, and that we're just playing dress up for a good cause... But it's a hard shift for me sometimes. In addition to having been in the Army, I currently work as a metrologist (calibration), and NEVER have to guess. Figure this is just my way of being absolutely thorough in making a secondary costume.

[Chef]

I've always wondered generally about a 'crew' suit for when spotting and the such like.

 

Rather than Garrison T-Shirts and the such like. Why not have all your spotters and such either as 'officer' ranks or 'crewmen'.

 

 

As for the 'ranks stripes'.... Well, again no-one really knows and it was probably a wardrobe error.

 

On screen you can see Scouts with 1, 4 and 6 stripes. Does it mean anything?? Probably not.

 

Are they likely to send out 'Officers' on patrol duty... Again, probably not. I was lucky if I saw any of my Ruperts anywhere near the front line, let alone in the boonies without a company of troops in front of them!

 

 

 

No Lid.... No go I'm afraid. Take your scout lid off in public and you're just Nik Sant... And that's rebel territory... And you're not a rebel are you??

[ThatThingOnTheFloor]

No kidding, right?

 

We had a 2nd LT in Afghan, liked to get us killed. He wasn't a bad guy, just inexperienced, and had a difficult time accepting input from our First Sergrant who'd been in country for ten months. Granted, we'd all been on deployment for nine/ten months at that point and received a shiny new LT to hold our jaded hands.

 

But this is also why one places a 2nd LT in with a proven maneuver element. Good chance they'll learn to listen to their NCO's and turn into a good officer.

 

 

The joke's always been: Who would you rather follow, a 2nd LT or Dora the Explorer?

 

Dora, because she has deductive reasoning skills and will at least poll the audience.

 

 

Now, not every 2nd LT is guilty of this, but they're largely subject to the same treatment as Privates who say things like "I learned this in BCT!"

 

 

 

[BlitzJaeger]

Very good reading so far...

 

As to tank stripes, I use 3.

 

Which in my local group we decided was Captain, in the movie the other biker salutes the one that captures Leia as mentioned and calls him sir and he has 4. So we decided that must indicate some sort of rank and since most of the others have 6 stripes we assumed that lesser bars is higher rank.

 

I am making a Captain rank TD so I tried to keep my rank the same on both suits as is my buddy Proxis, who is a TD Sergeant, and so he will use 4 bars on his tank assuming that the guy on film is the Lance Sergeant. (Theres nothing to prove otherwise afterall)

 

Not sure if it legit or not but thats what we decided upon...

 

As to the out of armor uniform, I think it is safe to assume it is similar to the Tie Reserve suit, might just be the flight suit with rank bars and officer hat, same with a dress uniform (black and hat).

 

Ranks will probably be something we never know for certain on this.

[boomer637]

As a noob to this forum I don't know if this counts for much but, I'm ex-Navy. Officers are Officers and enlisted are enlisted. They had separate, distinct uniforms that did not mix (at least in my day). You also did not mix your uniforms (i.e. working dress and dress uniform) unless you were part of a designated and specialized unit like the submarines where we were allowed to wear our sub's official ball cap.

 

With all that said I think wearing a presumably dress hat with a working uniform (i.e. BS armor) would be a no no.

 

Just saying.