Oberkisstillalive Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I was just wondering as the faceplate in particular (when modified) looks really screen accurate. I know it is made from crappy vinyl and suffers from horrible flaring but I have seen some people modify theirs and they made them look amazing. P.S. I only heard rumors that Don post was moulded from an original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Voorhees Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 You can make them look good, but they are not molded from an original as far as i can see. They are way off in that respect. Short, and just off in many proportions. As nice as you can get them to look, (and you can get them to look very good) they still dont look screen accurate to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberkisstillalive Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 Thanks for clearing that up Lou. the #1 reason I thought it was molded from an original was because I read a rumor about it on the RPF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 well.... You say that Lou. There may be some credence in the rumour. Some of the early DP Deluxe models were reported to be cast from original helmets. We must understand that DP WAS the licensee at back since 1977, and only relinquished that to Rubies in 2000 (ish) when the prequels bombed. So they would have potentially had similar access to the helmets, the same as EFx has now. So it is possible. I've found a few sources that say the same thing. I know the upper dome bit on the Rubies tends to be a bit on the shy side. but how far out the face plate is... well. I'm going to do some scaling of images over breakfast, to get some definitive sizes for various parts of the helmet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 well, the results (over a cup of tea and some lebkuchen). I would say that the DP is 'practically' scaled correctly. Using a picture from the new EFX lid (which we know to have screen accurate lineage, thanks Gino), I sized it using the known values of the helmet bolt and the snout greeblies (I've got original bolts and snout to measure from). Thus giving a correct scale for the picture. Then using the measure tool of the photoshop programme, I took a stack of referencing dimensions from various bits of the lid. I then cross referenced this against my own DP lid The faceplate is good, +/- 1mm The upper part of the shroud front is shy by 8mm, which is what I think is causing all the 'looks wrong' issues. The top dome ring is shy by 5mm in height. All all other measurements are essentially 'on spec'. As I said, I think the two main components that throw the look of the DP out are the top dome and the upper shroud, making it more squat looking. I'm reasonably convinced that whether or not the DP came from screen lineage, it is pretty correct in terms of it's over all size and scale (short of those bits listed above). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberkisstillalive Posted December 8, 2014 Author Share Posted December 8, 2014 Thank you for your input Rob! Could it be possible that the helmet is not the correct size just because it is made of vinyl? I have heard that vinyl shrinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 It is possible yes... Not so sure about vinyl, but Fibreglass (GRP) definitely can shrink. Polyester resin (which is what is commonly used in Fibreglass) 'can' have up to 10% shrinkage. But that said... I've used GRP a lot over the years, on various car body panels etc and have never witnessed such a high degree of shrinkage, yeah maybe 1-2% in extreme cases, but 10% is on the manufacturers spec. But shrinkage is usually uniform and affects most of the part. So I would doubt that shrinkage would be the cause of just a few of the bits being off such as the top dome, but leave the rest in perfect order. Warping on the other hand may be the cause of the visor shroud being out. Especially if it's been squashed. The dreaded 'flare' is a prime example of this. But it's more likely to be a change at the sculpting stage in my opinion. As unsubstantiated as that is. So in answer to your initial query, I'd say yes. With some modification (heavy in some parts), the DP can be made to be screen accurate in both terms of looks and scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Voorhees Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Interesting points Rob. I just have a hard time seeing it based on how wrong the faceplate looks to me. Mainly the "forehead" is smaller and it seems to be shorter in general, compared to the screen used. Just seems too off in my eyes to cast from an original. But i guess that can be because of what you mentioned..the top and shroud size. Sometimes a couple of things like that can REALLY throw off the look. Too me, just doesnt look screen accurate no matter what you do to it. Of course, the DP Fett helmet was supposedly cast off of one of the production helmets as well but its grossly small and off in shape in comparison to the screen used...so maybe it has something to do with their processes or the vinyl itself. i really have no clue there. Im not saying you cant get the DP close, and looking very good, but if it was in fact cast from an original, something was lost IMO. I always kind of though LFL didnt want licensed stuff to look as good as the screen used (at least back then) because having access to the real props as DP did back in the day, how come they all look so off ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I think for the most part, it comes down to what I call 'social conditioning'. I mean, who can truly say, all they do is look at the film and/or screen used buckets all the time?? We are vastly exposed to fan sculpts of (be it DP, MC, Rubies, SC what ever) the Scout bucket that eventually they creep into the subconscious about how something 'should look'. It's only natural, but it doesn't help. It certainly doesn't take much in terms of something being askew for it to throw the whole look out, and I'm certain this is the case with the DP. When you're talking about discrepancies of about 5-10mm over something which is 250mm in it's entirety, then that's practically 5%. Which is actually quite significant. The human eye is good for noticing discrepancies of less than 1mm. But 'overall', the sizing of the DP is reasonably accurate. Certainly in terms of it's volume. So when you have a lid next to one, that is noticeably larger (in every aspect), that is the one which is likely to be wrong. It's not that the DP is small.... it's the other is probably too big! We also have to remember that the actors were probably only average size. So when you get a 'standard' size lid on some hulking lump of lard like myself, then it may look a little small. All food for thought. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TB-7076 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 It might be that the DP Classics where scaled to acccomodate yoith size. They also had the deluxe edition which is more closer. So yes - like efx (and altmann?) a real one was at least used for reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Voorhees Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 The human eye is good for noticing discrepancies of less than 1mm. i think im blessed (or cursed? lol) with noticing less than that LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NegativeEleven Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 A little late to this discussion, but last time I looked, SC's website still listed the measurements of the vinyl DP helmet and implied that's the measurements he used to make his helmet. So, Lou, your helmet is an SC, right? It's not deformed like the vinyl ones (why do they box them like that at Rubies?), but I think a lot of the surface areas are the same size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junglie Scout Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 When I first did my Scout I got hold of a Don Post and modded it to look as close to the original as possible. I used the BSN gallery images and as Rob suggests, I found my helmet very close to the original dimensions. The most obvious error being the flaring at the bottom of the snout and that fact the snout also had a left leaning bias too. I cut the snout out of mine and corrected the asymmetry too. What a difference it made. So again Rob was right when he said that we sometimes see what we expect to see. I did have to carry out some major reshaping (on more than one occasion) and I think I got pretty close. I made some newbie mistakes along the way and in the end it was way too heavy to troop in (thank goodness for a LW replacement). It's my intention to revisit my original helmet and make it a truly awesome display helmet as its not much use for much else. Here's a link to the mod folder and it shows how the DP can be made to look as expected (or close in my case). http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/ringbolted/library/Biker%20Scout%20Build?sort=3&page=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NegativeEleven Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I noticed a similar bias over on the Mandalorian Mercs forums, but I don't think they even realize they're doing it. The mercs seem to be basing their judgement of what is acceptable less and less on the original source material and more on what they've accepted of other members in the past. Their guns are looking more and more like Halo and Mass Effect and less like WWII mods (more like Star Wars) and they told me recently that my flight suit looked baggy at the ankles. The baggy flight suit is a defining characteristic of Boba Fett to me. He's a skinny guy. They also told me that visible elastic isn't "Star Warsy." I'd hope none of the folks who told me that ever built a biker scout. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 It's a phenomena I call Exposure Blindness. When the vast majority keep using a certain set of items, then it becomes the norm. No matter how incorrect it is. And when it becomes the norm, if something that 'is' accurate is presented, they will say that it's not right. Because it's different from the accepted norm. Happens a great deal. But having measured the DP against a correctly scaled image of the EFX, I think that it is correctly sized, apart from the dome, which is approximately 5mm too low. The problem with the vinyl lids that DP and Rubies punted out is that they become so vastly misshapen in transit and storage that they become unrecognisable. They do take a lot of work to put straight, but once it is done, you'll find that they are a superb looking lid. But you have to put the work in. Obviously this doesn't help those of us with a slightly larger melon. But it does kick those larger lids that say 'screen accurate size' on the label. The sure fire way to work it out is that we have 'known' sizes on the lid. The 3M bolts (22mm), the snout (it's about 45mm without measuring it). So from this, you can work out every other size on the helmet. Those numbers cannot lie, and they are what will give you the answer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Voorhees Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 A little late to this discussion, but last time I looked, SC's website still listed the measurements of the vinyl DP helmet and implied that's the measurements he used to make his helmet. So, Lou, your helmet is an SC, right? It's not deformed like the vinyl ones (why do they box them like that at Rubies?), but I think a lot of the surface areas are the same size. My helmet is an LW actually. I have built a SC and thought it was small and looks weird, very soft detail also. The KS is nicer, and a touch bigger, closer to the DP size id think. "Exposure Blindness"..i like that one haha. I can see that for sure. Interesting on the sizing. Ive done that with Fett stuff as well. Take a measurement of a known found part, like the gauntlet calculator and take measurements from that. Works well id say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Voorhees Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 JunglieScout...most excellent mod on that DP..it looks fantastic! Question for ya...how much smaller is your modded DP compared to the LW? Is it alot? Im curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NegativeEleven Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 KS has a lot of weird messed up spots (back edge of visor has some awful dents that look worse on newer pulls). Newer SC looks much better, but i agree it's just a hair smaller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junglie Scout Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Thanks Darth Voorhees, as I used a screen helmet for sizing them both, they are in fact exactly the same size but the blinder and snout are slightly different. I'll take a side by side shot mid week as I'm away from home to show a comparison. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Voorhees Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 that would be most excellent! lol Your DP looks great man. It actually inspired me to grab that rubies that Wilson was selling and see what i can do with it lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junglie Scout Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 You won't regret it. I spent ages on it and used a guide that Rob sent me, it was most helpful. If I've got anymore progress photos floating around I'll upload them into the album I linked earlier in the thread. If you want more I can take some of it as it is now. Unfortunately it's pretty battered as I moved home recently and it didn't travel well. It's half the reason I'm going redo it. Good luck and if you need anything at all hit me up. Andy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Voorhees Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Thats pretty awesome. Im actually looking for a tutorial now..i know there was one here a few years back...i think it was Blue Cyclone's. I got the Rubies in today, and it was a pancake...the face was flat lol...but i got it pretty decent now. I took the rivets out of the visor/faceplate and put screws temporarily to hold em together. What glue would work for this vinyl? id like to glue it, remove the screws and fill the holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junglie Scout Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I'd plump for a two part epoxy mate. Araldite here in the UK is what I use for all sorts of stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junglie Scout Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 These pics may help??? As discussed, the Don Post is more sqat than the LW but there are numerous dimensions that are identical. That explains the differing look between them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Voorhees Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 That is a GREAT comparison! I found the same thing once i got this DP to a almost done state. They seem similar in size except the DP is squished a little bit. Very interesting to see them side by side. I did a comparison with mine also but yours being finished is a much clearer comparison. thank you for that! ok 2 part epoxy it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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