TB-7076 Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 I think that depends on the individual body frame - at least in the movies. From the scene in the bunker we know that we had different sizes of extras in the costumes but I doubt the costumes were tailored to fit as individually as our individual costumes. I think there is no real wrong or right as long as you achieve a look matching the given references on screen which seem to differ slightly as well. Manequins usually are of a idealized model height and physique. In europe that is 1,85 m and quite athletic but still slander. I am 1,76 m "tall" and of average physique (a tad of the fater side for some period), the extras on set we don't know the exact ranges and depend on guess work. It might be the shorter one shown among the lance at the bunker in the moment prior to the "speeder theft" is of my height or slightly taller, while one or two are quite large but still within the norm and one in between. The debate about Bear's involvement in the Scout role set aside - he was an extra or stuntman and was larger than me. So naturally a one-size-fits most design would have looked different on him than on me also resulting in different heights of the belt in relation to the bund. In the screenshots in most cases we see that the belt and bund form a gap in the rear but not always a clearly visible border between utillity belt and forward bund. In one case it is questionable for both sides - front and rear - as we can't see a clear border or the bund wrapping over. It looks as if this guy has the belt slightly covering the bund end - be it for reasons of body frame or dressing. This is also quite "borderline" if you ask me (I hope it's not too small or too large, I can't tell with my WQHD monitor) I think while it is intended that the bund at least doesn't go beyond the lower end of the utilltiy belt the actual look depends a kot on how the suit was applied on the extra for xy scene and what type of body frame he had. I know that a lot of bunds in the legion are way too long for various reasons ranging from bad base patterns as well as bad communication of sizes with distant commissions opposed to on-set possiblities to adjust as we have seen the behind the scenes footage where the skid pads were also a tan to brown tone as in the concept sketches. Additonally we have the differences in width in the belt - forward utillity belt is like 8.5cm (MC), originally used polyester webbing for the actual belt riveted to the utillity part was about 5cm - a size most of our legionaires use. So in case we have a slight overlap of belt over bund we still have the distance of belt and bund in the back - especially in bend positions we often see in the endor scenes (riding, running, fighting). However even a moderate design like my bund tends to produce different relations to the belt depending on how the suit was taken on that day although it is always the same suit and the same guy in it.... So if your bund is not way too long like some of our comrades it should be ok. I think - from a designer's point of view - we can assume that the intention has been that belt and bund don't interfere but form a close border. However it seems the border between crotch and bund was consistently covered in the movie shots. We can't tell if that was intended or just a coincidence until one of those involved remember otherwise. Conclusion I think our efforts replicating a proper presentation of the character should promote to avoid that the bund overlapping beyond the belt at the belt's lower end and the upper end of the webbing of the torso. Overlapping of the upper end of the utillity belt is not a drama in my opinion and justified looking at the screen references. Also it just doesn't look right even without the reference. But I also have another question for Gino As I'm planing on applying screen authentic weathering on my current armor I wonder if you can tell something about the spray paints and maybe other techniques used. Some original references allow for the assumption that the weathering applied not only derived from black spray paint. I find some grey and even brownish tones in some photos. Can you elaborate on that? Here are two screenshots that lead to my assumption (due to size only linked): http://www.madphisto...bootholster.jpg http://www.madphisto.net/dirt_boot.jpg http://www.madphisto...irt_brscout.jpg http://www.madphisto...rt_momscout.jpg I am aware of the fact that some of the colours on armor and boots may have their origin due to exposure to nature while filming at Redwood Forest and storage and transportation as well as the usual friction between prop material. After 5 years of service my armor doesn't look pristine as well and features some interesting marks and weathering of non-artificial origin . But I think the pictures illsutrate quite well that black might have been not the only option. Some more info on the material of the bund would be also nice but I think that was already asked and left out...so. I still think it is very basic fabric similar to the one used for the vest although it sometimes looks as if they were different materials. I myself allowed for some freedom due ot the lack of a definate answer and created a more durable and practical piece. But then again I'm not of the same mind set as collectors are but still need as much background information to preserve a the formal look and feel of that character. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 Yeah I would say that the intention was for the belt to be attached flush with the bottom of the bund. However due to sloppy dressing, or movement a slight gap or overlap would happen from time to time. . 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Voorhees Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Gino this is all great info! Fantasic really! I'll see ya this weekend at NYCC, in my scout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 Lou I forgot to tell you, EFX isn't going to be at NYCC this year as I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjsavage7 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Hey Gino, it was a real pleasure meeting you at DragonCon & my mind is still totally blown, seeing that beautiful costume! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 Same here BJ and thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberkisstillalive Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Gino, I must say that has to be the best scout costume I have ever seen anywhere! (aside from the originals, of course) I have a few questions regarding the helmets in the archive and the original costume. 1. Do you know exactly how many helmets were produced? 2. What type of balaclava did they use? 3. Do you know why the scout that fights han hand to hand has such a big faceplate lens? 4. How much different are all of the original helmets from one another? And how so?(minor subtle differences such as overall form, curves, flares, etc.) I totally understand if you cannot answer some or any of my questions but I am really dying to know lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 Thanks Andrew! 1. not sure but there are a lot of helmets/costumes in the archives, i would say almost all of them are still there 2. the balaclava is actually sewn to a long sleeve undershirt 3. the scout that han fights is actually wearing an entire stunt costume. The helmet and armor are made in a red rubber and painted white which is why all the details of this costume are so wonky and weird. They used this same red rubber material to make the sarlac pit fett costume and other misc stunt items for ROTJ. 4. I would say from a construction standpoint they are all very similar. There are some small variances in the way the visor is trimmed and assembled but that's about it. Also the indentations on the bottom rear of the helmet and vary a bit due to damage/repair work to the original mold as they were vac forming the originals. . 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BikerScout007 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 2. the balaclava is actually sewn to a long sleeve undershirt . So there was a long-sleeve undershirt, along with an undersuit, vest, cummerbund and codpiece? That's a lot of layers! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 Yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Voorhees Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Lou I forgot to tell you, EFX isn't going to be at NYCC this year as I thought. ahhhh that sucks Well i'll catch ya next time, or perhaps at C7 I really wanna see the LW and EFX buckets next to each other! well now i wanna sew my balaclava to a shirt...maybe a short sleeved shirt so i dont die LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 Def c7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffin-X Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Thanks Andrew! 1. not sure but there are a lot of helmets/costumes in the archives, i would say almost all of them are still there 2. the balaclava is actually sewn to a long sleeve undershirt 3. the scout that han fights is actually wearing an entire stunt costume. The helmet and armor are made in a red rubber and painted white which is why all the details of this costume are so wonky and weird. They used this same red rubber material to make the sarlac pit fett costume and other misc stunt items for ROTJ. 4. I would say from a construction standpoint they are all very similar. There are some small variances in the way the visor is trimmed and assembled but that's about it. Also the indentations on the bottom rear of the helmet and vary a bit due to damage/repair work to the original mold as they were vac forming the originals. . Good to know more of this info...thanks Gino! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberkisstillalive Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Thanks Andrew! 1. not sure but there are a lot of helmets/costumes in the archives, i would say almost all of them are still there 2. the balaclava is actually sewn to a long sleeve undershirt 3. the scout that han fights is actually wearing an entire stunt costume. The helmet and armor are made in a red rubber and painted white which is why all the details of this costume are so wonky and weird. They used this same red rubber material to make the sarlac pit fett costume and other misc stunt items for ROTJ. 4. I would say from a construction standpoint they are all very similar. There are some small variances in the way the visor is trimmed and assembled but that's about it. Also the indentations on the bottom rear of the helmet and vary a bit due to damage/repair work to the original mold as they were vac forming the originals. . Thank you for all of this info Gino! This was way more than what I expected! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donovan Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Ok so I have some questions, how do you keep the belt covering the gap between the cod and cummerbund?is something holding the belt up to prevent it from moving? Do you know the exact brand/maker of the undersuit? Are the pouches connected to the chest or cummerbund? How long is this vest? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TB-7076 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I think these are questions we might answer ourselves even though it's still guessing: First - it is no gap per se. It is a border between two elements being connected to each other. I think there is nothing to hold the belt. It is probably a matter of how tight the belt ran around the wearer's hip and how carefully it got positioned by the dressers or how movement caused them to slip and clearly expose this border. But except for production shots and exhibition pieces like the blu ray 360° installation I don't remember a scout having slipping problems on screen. (But I haven't checked it yet) Here the production shots with one example that should be noticable on screen as well: It might also be that this has been on purpose to define were the belt should sit. It would pose an analogue to the TK abdomen plate with the distinct raised border above the line where the belt is used to be. (source: troopermaster album) --- The connection of the pouches can be recognized very well in the frontal zoom view of the blu ray showroom feature. Looking at it you see that these seem to be sewn on directly to the cummerbund. They appeal to mee too tightly attached to the bund to be velcreod on or something like that. As Gino already said that everything is kind of hung or attached to the vest it makes no sense to have them connected to vest and bund as bund and vest still seem to be independent items. If they were connected to the vest there would be no connection to the bund and if there was no connection to the bund the extensions of the pouches wouldn't sit so tight to the bund. Looking at the picture you also might realize there are some hints that there is a clear border between black vest area and bund and pouches. The extensiopns holding the pouches would go beyond the bund if they were connected to the vest. The zoom also shows that the overlapping extension of the pouch is kind of slipping under the armor due to missing tension keeping it in place. There you see this fold under the chest armor and looking at it carefully you might discover the seam of the edge of that part. The corner pointing inwards is also almost visible implying it's still in the white area of the bund. But.... I discovered an interesting thing in one of the Brinn71 promotion shots that also show that the pouches probably are not connected to the vest. If you look at the strapping between chest and back. the strap seems to cover at least one loop or something else which might be part of the connection between bund and vest... As it shows both - the border of bund/pouches to the vest and this strip or loop I put it into the picture as well but isolated it in this picture again: I think one guy once claimed the pouches were attached to the strapping running along the chest. Looking at the Magic of Myth pictures I think I'm pretty safe saying that is not possible. At least that MoM strapping is ending at the slot being wrapped around and sewn on to itself creating a loop. Meaning there is no strapping running along the chest line. But maybe he interpreted these white spots to be such a connection. Now the interesting thing would be what are they and how does this work? Loops holding a square ring or a hook meeting thier counterpart at the vest or something? --- Now that I have typed so much again... Gino please tell me if comments/discussions like these are unwelcomed as this is actually your showcase with your Q&A. I'd respect that and just aks and listen like everyone else does and of course ask a moderator to remove posts that contain no questions and just theories on my behalf. I wish there was a spoiler-collapse function. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 It's okay I don't mind. I'll still try to answer some questions when I can. Yes the pouches are absolutely sewn to the bund. . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BikerScout007 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 --- The connection of the pouches can be recognized very well in the frontal zoom view of the blu ray showroom feature. Looking at it you see that these seem to be sewn on directly to the cummerbund. They appeal to mee too tightly attached to the bund to be velcreod on or something like that. As Gino already said that everything is kind of hung or attached to the vest it makes no sense to have them connected to vest and bund as bund and vest still seem to be independent items. If they were connected to the vest there would be no connection to the bund and if there was no connection to the bund the extensions of the pouches wouldn't sit so tight to the bund. The pic on the right is great because you can clearly see that the codpiece is separate from the bund, and actually goes under it, where it presumably connects to the vest. Gino has already said that the flak vests are much longer than the half-shirts we currently use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donovan Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Ok cool thanks Phillip, and I luke the pictures you posted. You can really see the cummerbund over lapping the cod well in that picture. And I really hate having my pouches sewn to the bund so I'll just keep them on the chest, it looks similar and is more functional. I also am planning on redoing my cummerbund to make it more accurate. But I wont do it for some time. If it wasn't for Gino I dont think we would've found out much of this info. He's been a huge help to everybody with all of his resources 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TB-7076 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Actually I am in the same boat regarding the attachment of the pouches. It is the one thing I will also avoid in future builds being unpractical and leading to (in my eyes) unwanted results while in action. It is also one of the things I already read out of the references but didn't incorporate into my suit for practical reasons be it washing, flipping over and lose and all that side effects I don't like while trooping and trying to keep a believable impression which is hard enough with the kids of today being robbed their childhood by industral interests too soon. However knowing the truth is a relief and very important for me and of course the other bikers out there whatever personal preference they might be up to. I also think while we get small heaps of information these little tidbits are of a major impact for our development of the costume. I also want to thank Gino for this special favour to us. And hope there will be some more of these earth shaking little details. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 No prob guys! Now if only we could find some of those missing parts I listed. . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BikerScout007 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 There's always the costume book coming out in two short weeks.... maybe that will have some answers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TB-7076 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Well, Gino has been in the archives, he might have spoken to Mollo too - also I think he might have had a view behind the scenes of this very book as well. Gino I haven't found a post asking for advice on the RPF though I admit I haven't read the complete thread showing off your costume there. I think in the whole there is more interdisciplinary expertise to be found than here (not saying BSN is a place of ignorance). Maybe I just didn't look carefully enough though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Yeah a good friend of mine is the author of that book and had many discussions with him while it was being made. However I can say right now that none of the scout items that we are searching for will be found in it, or I would already know what they were. Mollo didn't work on ROTJ, the scouts were make at ILM in the US just for clarification. Don't get me wrong, I love the RPF, but this forum is most definitely the place to have a scout discussion. Way more interest and focus here than anywhere else. . 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffin-X Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Yeah a good friend of mine is the author of that book and had many discussions with him while it was being made. However I can say right now that none of the scout items that we are searching for will be found in it, or I would already know what they were. Mollo didn't work on ROTJ, the scouts were make at ILM in the US just for clarification. Don't get me wrong, I love the RPF, but this forum is most definitely the place to have a scout discussion. Way more interest and focus here than anywhere else. . Thanks Gino, we love having you here with us on BSN! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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