Shoulder Bell elastic - question on sizing

[kay_dee]

I have a few shoulder bell elastic questions and some questions about where the lancer specs come from.

 

1) Is it permitted to have elastic going from the center top of the bell bridging between the shoulder of the chest armor to attach it at the shoulder? I don't see it mentioned in the CRL. If so, how wide should it be? Or does it not matter, so that is why it is not mentioned because nobody knows?

 

2) I'm curios how you all arrived at 1 3/8" for the shoulder bell bicep attachment? I know it's pretty evident it is roughly that wide for the bicep armor itself, but I am having trouble finding evidence that the shoulder bell elastic is that wide. You'd see something really wide along the quilted sleeve if that were the case.

 

In fact, all my preliminary photo research points to the shoulder bell elastic which wraps around the upper part of the bicep to be closer to 1/2" or so. Very narrow.

 

Here are some caps from the film where to me, it looks like it is narrow bicep elastic which digs into the quilted vest sleeve.

 

 

 

 

And this MOM photo, it seems to me the elastic may have become loose with age, or just was not slid up onto the arm properly, so it is caught dropping down below the sleeve under the bicep armor. It seems like it is thin, I don't know that you'd get this effect with 1 3/8" wide elastic.

 

 

[Chef]

Morning Kathy.

 

I think it's one of those bits of the costume that's never been fully nailed down, hence why it's not stated in the Specs.

 

I'm loving the reference shots, very comprehensive. Just what I like in a detailed point of view.

 

 

You may be right in so far the strap width isn't probably as wide as people think. I still think it is probably pretty wide though, from your 1st pic, and the 3rd would suggest the same (although it looks like it's rolled a little on it's bottom edge).

But in comparison to the chest/back sides, it does appear similar, or smaller.

 

As for the attachments. From your pictures I would hazard a guess that the elastic (and probably the top of the bell) had a press stud or other fixing behind the armour plate itself. Hence why the elastic seems to head for the centre of the plate.

 

Likewise at the top, it would explain why the top of the shoulder bell doesn't pull in towards the shoulder bridge join all the time, but seems to consistently follow the line of the upper arm.

 

 

A good point... Well made!

 

*** that's how to construct an argument. ***

[M.J]

lovin the photos Kathy.

[4505Marcel]

You have to remember Kathy the CRL is a constant work opinion progress, as we get better info, we are discussing the lancer one now.

 

It was only a 2-3 years back that no one really cared for the scout in terms of accuracy full stop. People were pretty close to stoning me for adding in the vest and crotch patches to the CRL, and now we are having discussions about an exact size of elastic, which is fantastic and was my vision all along. We did the best we could with what we had at the time, you also have to remember different thickness of elastic will look different on someone 5'5" to someone 6'6", so we tried to nail sizes on what would look good on everyone.

 

From what I'm led to believe most of the screen scouts were pretty short and trying to work the scales was a night mare, but were getting there and becoming more accurate all the time which is great

[bjsavage7]

Since there seem to be some small subtle similarities between the Scout and the ROTJ TK, (which had thinner shoulder bell elastic - about 6.3 mm or so), I think it's fair to think they would be about the same size.

[kay_dee]

6.3mm (1/4") around the bicep? Or is this to attach the bell to the chest armor at the shoulder? (had questions about both).

 

Photos of biker scout do seem like it should be between 1/4" - 1/2" at most around the bicep anyway. I know lancer says much wider - but part of me just wants to say I don't agree with that and though I'd like lancer status for all the work... my eyes say 1 3/4" is far too wide for the bell.

 

Since there seem to be some small subtle similarities between the Scout and the ROTJ TK, (which had thinner shoulder bell elastic - about 6.3 mm or so), I think it's fair to think they would be about the same size.

[kay_dee]

You have to remember Kathy the CRL is a constant work opinion progress, as we get better info, we are discussing the lancer one now.

 

I understand that, I've worked on CRL (standards) at the Rebel Legion. It's just since I'm working on the build now and I always study photos first hand before I dive in - these questions are coming up for me and figured this was the place to ask and talk about it since I have decisions to make

 

As for the vest, I can see why members who didn't have it didn't want it added as another requirement since for years nobody knew it was there, but it would be unfair to deny people from adding it and gaining 501st acceptance when it's clearly what is part of the costume. (I guess that is where levels come in. Most people never missed the vest so the scout is very troopable without it, but others who know it is there should be encouraged in some way to add it).

[kay_dee]

 

As for the attachments. From your pictures I would hazard a guess that the elastic (and probably the top of the bell) had a press stud or other fixing behind the armour plate itself. Hence why the elastic seems to head for the centre of the plate.

 

 

There is one photo from the exhibit I had not posted where you can sort of make out a snap/stud near the bottom of the bell where the thin bicep elastic attaches. (I'll see if I can post it tonight) Clearly in the pics I see anyway, the bicep elastic is far narrower than the ivory side chest armor. By leaps and bounds as I highlighted the black bicep shoulder bell elastic in red. I agree it looks perhaps rolled on the third photo.

 

And the top of the bell - I'm guessing just go with the instructions in my MC kit since so far I find no photos specifying widths or method of attachment near the top of the bell, other than elastic bridges between the top of the bell and the center of the chest armor shoulders.

[Chef]

I use a pop stuff and patch of velcro on mine. I then have the corresponding bit on my flak vest and flight suit to hold it all in place.

[BikerScout007]

I use a pop stuff and patch of velcro on mine. I then have the corresponding bit on my flak vest and flight suit to hold it all in place.

 

That's the route I'm going to take as well. I haven't seen anything in the photos to suggest the t-strap thing that some folks have been using.

[Dart]

Great photos and a great subject for debate/clarification.

 

I agree, the strap does look thinner than the bicep, but I don't think it's quite as thin as some have mentioned above. To me, it looks closer to 1". My reasoning for that is that when looking at those photos, and then comparing that to how it scales on my body (using my 1" wide thumb as a stand-in), 1/2" and 1/4" seem way too small for the scale shown.

 

That all said, it stands to reason that if we're going for consistency, using a 1" strap on the bottom knee, forearm, and (possibly) shoulder cap would be appropriate and seems fairly reasonable from a costume production standpoint. Anytime I see threads like these questioning sizes, I like to try to approach the situation as though I was creating the costume for the movie. Why, as the guy responsible for buying all the costume components, would I buy more sizes of webbing than needed? It makes sense to have the 1" webbing be the strap size of choice for much of the costumes that needed it. I could see them maybe getting a wider size for the bits that need them, and maybe a little bit of the really small stuff for aesthetic/design purposes. Let's remember that even though they had a big budget, it was still a finite amount so they had to make the best use of what they had.

 

TL;DR - If we're considering a size change for the shoulder, it's my guestimated opinion that the elastic webbing shouldn't be any smaller than 1".

[Mandalorean]

Good eyes

I also fixed the top of my shoulder bell with a press stud on the shoulder of the flack vest and the other side glued inside the bell to give an invisible attachment, as Chef suggests.

After reading this though I may take another look at my strapping around the arm and try a 1" elastic loop with a central press stud near the bottom of the bell

 

Andy

[kay_dee]

Currently, I still stand by my educated guess that it's closer to 1/2" on the lower part of the bell (agree now that probably not as narrow as 1/4"). I'm sort of scaling off of the ribs on the sleeve. If we are to say the bicep armor (not bell, the armor below the bell) elastic is 1 3/8 - 1.5" then scale things off of that - the ribs on the shirt are visibly narrower than the bicep armor elastic (so in a range between 1"-1.25" space between quilted ribs). The elastic on the shoulder bell bicep is narrower than those sleeve ribs to my eye.

 

This is presuming that the 1.5" elastic is correct for the biceps (I almost think at times it looks wider than that when comparing to the 1.5" chest webbing)

 

I often use photoshop's ruler tool and easy algebra to aid scaling parts of my costumes.

 

When looking at the black and white photo and doing the basic scaling math:

1.5 (bicep armor elastic) x .285(ruler tool bell elastic) divided by .941 (ruler tool bicep armor elastic) = .45" shoulder bell elastic around bicep.

 

I did the math using the other presumed 1.375" bicep armor elastic size which will give you a smaller number just because, you are starting with a smaller number.

1.375 x .285 (ruler tool bell elastic) divided by .941 (ruler tool bicep armor elastic) = .41"

 

Seems either way you would round up to 1/2" for the bell elastic.

 

The screen grabs are not as clear, but at least the elastic is up around the arm. So I gave the math a try there too.

 

1.5" (known bicep armor elastic) x .216 (ruler tool bell elastic) divided by .898 (ruler tool bicep elastic) = .36" - that puts it between .25 and .5" elastic on the bells - but the screen grabs are less crisp and the elastic is not straight on so I could see scaling the .36" up to .5"

 

That's what math and my eyes are telling me anyway. I know, there are not many good photos to go on anyway.

 

And call me a controversial elastic obsessed crazy woman - but the knee armor actually looks to me like it has something closer to 1/2 - 3/4" elastic running through the lower part of the armor slot.

 

 

 

No matter how tightly I pull on 1" elastic going through that notch, it does not look that narrow and ends up taking up the entire slot.

 

 

Yeah, I bought a lot of elastic yesterday and have been comparing it to the real photos when I put it through my armor.

[kay_dee]

Oh, and here is that other image of the shoulder bell where you can sort of make out the edges of the elastic and something that is either just lint (lol!) or a bit of shiny snap connecting the elastic under the armor - maybe. I highlighted what might be a snap in green. The elastic in red.

[BikerScout007]

Now I'm going to have to redo my knee armor, you controversial elastic obsessed crazy woman, you.

 

It looks like the top and bottom knee armor straps are the same size. Probably .5"?

[Dart]

Regarding the knee strapping, it was decided that the screen grabs were so inconsistent that the bottom strap would be 1". So, regardless of what you see on screen, that's the size you should be going with, purely for consistency's sake. The top knee strap is smaller, so it was decided to set that at 1/2", if I'm not mistaken. Again, purely for consistency's sake.

 

Back to the shoulder bell elastic, you might be operating under the assumption that the bicep strap is 1.5". What I got with my kit (about 5 years ago), was elastic sized around 2".

 

But again, back to practical side. A strap as thin as 1/2" that's attached to a single point on the inside of the shoulder bell, would seem to me to make for a floppy piece of armour, no?

 

I think this whole thread boils down to what's "screen accurate" and what's practical to wear AND still looks pretty close. It's just my personal opinion, but I think the current guidelines are pretty good, if for no other reason than because they're consistent. It saves us all from having to buy 5 different widths of elastic.

[Griffin-X]

I use 35mm elastic on the shoulders and biceps. I find it secures the parts nicely and looks proportionate for me. I had 1.5 elastic before and it looked small and barely held the parts. I also have the knees setup like Dart mentioned. It works for me.

[Bobik96]

It kinda looks like it got stretched to appear 1/2 inch. Of you look close on the bluray. My pic quality is poor. There are three straps. It looks like the bottom is one long strap with both ends attached on the inside of the left leg. The strap is small on the outside but big in the inside. It is much more clear in the actual blue ray.

[Dart]

It kinda looks like it got stretched to appear 1/2 inch. Of you look close on the bluray. My pic quality is poor. There are three straps. It looks like the bottom is one long strap with both ends attached on the inside of the left leg. The strap is small on the outside but big in the inside. It is much more clear in the actual blue ray.

 

Interesting shots, Jason. Thing is, us scouts kinda got short-changed in the costume consistency department. There's some on-screen armour bits that look like they have 1" webbing, yet in another shot, on a different scout, the same strap looks considerably thinner.

 

That all said, it really makes it difficult for us to have a definitive scout trooper to copy. Aside from the fact that, unlike the TKs, who have actual movie armour to base measurements from, we just don't have access to enough bits to be able to do much more than guesstimate sizes.

 

The idea that there's a second bottom knee strap is interesting, but the problem is consistency. The one on the Blu-ray shows something like that, but we've seen displays where that wasn't the case. It's enough to make your head spin, ha!

 

If you haven't already picked up your elastics, you're better off to just stick to the CRL's.

[Bobik96]

Ya your right about the consistency. I think you gave good advice. I just now finished my knees according to the CRL. It's good to have a place to talk about this stuff.