Trade section shake up discussion

[4505Marcel]

Hey troopers, with the site shaping up nicely. I wanted to discuss the trade section as the next thing that needs looking into, I have spoken to Chex and Griffen X and now its time for your views.

We seem to be having issues with merch runs, vendors not delivering or supplying poor quality goods and the like. Now I want to get into place better security for you guys spending your hard earned money.

 

Theres a few ways we can tackle this, some of the ideas I have are as follows-

 

To be able to use the trade section, a vendor must be atleast be 501st cleared, this is to stop vendors messing up and doing a runner with guys money. Now I know this isnt 100% fool proof but atleast a vendor should be contactable and details logged within the legion. If there not 501st then how do we contact them if they decide to not honor the deal.

 

A vendor must be a member or the BSN for say 3 months and have 25 posts minimum, atleast we can then get a feel for who we are deling with.

 

Apart from things like patches that require large runs, do we limit run numbers on other items to give a vendor time to deliver, this will be quite hard to enforce though.

 

On anouther side of the coin what about vendor security, I was thinking about locking down the trade section. Troopers then need to ask for access after say 1 month and 10 posts or similar, this could be done so vendors also know who they are dealing with. As at the end of the day we are talking about unlicensed stuff.

 

So thoughts really as its your forum guys.......

[DarthShlomo]

This is a sticky situation all around. Many of us have been on the receiving end of delivery times not being met over and over because the manufacturer overextended themselves only to finally receive a sub par product because they are rushing to get promised order delivered. Not to mention the very valid concern from vendors with bad customers.

 

I think a good place for us to begin would be to look at how some of the other Dets handle this issue and what works and doesn't work for them. This will help us from trying to reinvent the wheel.

[Pandatrooper]

Great discussion. On FISD, there were also issues with sellers so some of the suggestions Marcel made were implemented such as minimum posts, etc.

 

My personal feeling (having seen some products sold on this forum - some great and some way below par) is:

 

- 501st member: if they are really in it to help fellow scouts and not just make profit, absolutely - they should be 501st members.

 

- minimum membership status: having a set duration like being a member on the forum for 3 months and 25 posts minimum. On some forums I was on for paintball, you had to have 50 posts or more, mainly to combat me too sellers.

 

- how about vendor rep points? On a paintball forum, you had a review section for good or bad sales / service, and rep points based on your performance. Kind of like Ebay ratings, 4 stars, 80 transactions happily completed, etc.

 

- for those new to the forum, I wouldn't lock down the for sale section (eg: how can they become a scout if they can't buy armor, or blasters, or boots, etc.) But perhaps new members should have a minimum post count as well. Maybe require an introduction thread where they describe what they want to do, how to join, etc. and a minimum post count of 10 or more. This helps newbies become more of the community, and not just buy something and leave.

 

- Just an idea, but the astromech.net R2 builders group has a very stringent process, where staff have to approve a seller and their product before they can post it. Maybe we don't do everything they do, but its worth looking at as they had to deal with the same issues.

 

Thanks! Terry

[Chef]

I have to say that this really is a bit of a contentious issue.

 

As an individual that does make stuff for others (when they ask), and having seen good friends on the receiving end of incredibly bad, bordering on criminal treatment (I won't even say service... because taking your money and not delivering the items isn't service).

 

So what do you do???

 

On the UK Garrison forums, the for sale section is locked out until you are a 501st Member, for ALL users. Vendors and Purchasers alike.

We do use an Armourer based system where prospective recruits can be put in the direction of reputable vendors. These chaps have their finger on the pulse of their chosen costume and know who's giving good product, good service, decent price, good lead times and the such like.

 

 

I think having the for sale section as a bit of a Private section is a good idea.

 

It does give a vendor a bit of anonymity from potential prying eyes, and if a new recruit can't see something, the usual happening is that they ask.... A conscientious chap would then drop that person a PM if there is something in the for sale section for them.

 

 

 

How to protect people from parting with their hard earned money....

I'm not entirely sure this can be done, especially when people are being forced to pay FULL COST, UP FRONT.... and then having to wait 3-4 Months (and possibly more) in order to receive their items...

To be honest, this is just plain wrong....

If a vendor has got a 6 months + backlog.... then they really need to sort themselves out and stop taking on further orders.

Most plastic based armour can be pulled within a week (tops...).

 

And if they've got your money up front... there is no incentive for them to rush to get it to you!!

 

And this needs a fundamental attitude shift on the part of the vendors... There is nothing you can do on the forums to combat this short of not recommending them...

 

The same goes for those vendors who drop the ball on quality control (as KS did a while back...).

 

 

 

I would like to think that a vendor is 501st registered, and not purely in it for the money!

 

 

The Issue of vendor rep points, is also a very tricky one.

Whilst some people are happy to wait 9 months for their stuff... others may not be happy waiting 9 minutes, so this can be at the mercy of the individual and how picky they are.

 

 

So all in all I don't think that there is any one solution that fits all.

 

 

But overall, the onus should be on protecting the community and providing them with the best we can.

 

 

 

I'd recommend the following.

 

1: Locking out the For Sale Forum to non 501st members. Recruits to be given information, vendors lists, recommendations etc by cleared members or designated forum individuals.

2: Vendors must be 501st registered.

3: Vendors to state a 'lead time' for their products.

4: Vendors falling behind their lead times without good reason..... (and "this is just a hobby..." ISN'T a good reason!) come off the recommendation list or at least have their for sales threads locked down until they are back up to running speed.

 

 

My reasoning for this being...

 

If they (the vendor) are not willing to abide by a little common courtesy to their customers, then they should not be taking peoples money!

These costumes aren't cheap!!

[Heavy]

Small question :

 

If the trade forum are being locked down for non-members of the 501st. - how are we then going to find the things we need for our armor, so we can become 501st. members ??

 

I think a separete forum for us newbies with a vendor list and information would be very nice to have, if the trade forum is being locked down. Here the bsn admin. could easily put the trusted vendors on and write down those not to buy from.

[Chef]

As it works over on the UK Garrison forum....

 

1: Newbie asks the question.

2: Armourer then PM's that newbie with the information he seeks.

3: Job done.....

 

 

We've NEVER had non-501st access to the For Sales section on our boards, and we're the 2nd biggest Garrison in the world. It isn't a hinderance.

Plus it draws them into the community, rather than just browsing the board, finding the information they want and toddling off again.

[Dart]

If the trade forum are being locked down for non-members of the 501st. - how are we then going to find the things we need for our armor, so we can become 501st. members ??

 

Actually, there already are separate 501st and non-member trade forums on this board. But I hear what you're saying.

 

I like the idea of having a minimum post count to access the trade forum. The mods would have to do a bit more patrolling to ensure that new users aren't just putting in single-word replies just to get a post count.

 

Another requirement for items would be to only allow stuff for sale if it's actually made, so no pre-order stuff unless we make that a separate section. That way, there's no excuse if someone advertises 10 items for sale and can't deliver.

[PanzerKraken]

Allowing only 501st approved sellers seems just kind of fishy. Especially if they are going to start contacting a person with a cherry picked vendor. Creating a monopoly for specific vendors and putting up a wall for potential new and better sources to get off the ground.

[dankelzaga]

Greetings..I am certainly one of the newer members here but I def would like to add my thoughts or simply add some "stress" to the points some of you already make.

 

Locking out a new member from the trade forum is not a good idea imo. While I certainly appreciated the "vendors" post. It didn't cover everything and there are quite a few very nice items that I've acquired from the trade postings that I would never have gotten otherwise. If you do lock out us "newbies" someone is going to have a very full agenda of constantly redirecting people to certain vendors. An example of this is the wonderful hyperfirm blaster that I was able to purchase. These aren't available all the time, yes we know the vendor, but they aren't always available and there isn't a current link to them on the vendor page. I feel like my being diligent relative to checking the posts daily... was in turn rewarded with a very, very nice blaster.

 

I'm going to assume that more often than not we are dealing with "difficult sellers" versus " difficulty buyers". I realize this is a general statement but typically a buyer pays for something that they are seeing advertised, waits for the item, and then expects that item to be as described. There are certainly very picky buyers, and very impatient buyers...but that sort of thing can usually be cleared up with initial communication. The fact is...a buyer is trusting a seller with their hard earned money via these boards...it is the seller who must in turn "earn" the money they are receiving. You generally don't walk into a brick or mortar store or any other on-line business for that matter and expect to receive a hassle if your unhappy with either the service or the product.

 

In contrast to the impatient and "never can be pleased" buyers we have the sellers who don't come remotely close to projected wait times..or remotely close to quality in regards to advertised product...or who have zero inclination to make good on their poor products. I see this as a much more serious problem.

 

So....I am very happy you all are looking at this. My solutions or advice for some of this is 1) NOTHING..should require payment in full up front. Half down would be acceptable and the other half at time of shipment would be my advice. There is absolutely zero incentive for sellers to finish my products when they have all of my money up front. 2). If your going to use this site to sell your products...then you must have a plan for unhappy customers and state it up front. Money back, adjustments , replacements, etc. Have something in place.

 

Again, thanks for looking at this..it is very much appreciated.

[dankelzaga]

One more post and I'll be done...the thing is..I'm seeing posts about not wanting some of the "newbies" to simply show up here, get what we need, and not be a part of the community. I'm a bit older and likely naive but I just don't quite get that. The reason that many of us come here is to get the information and items we need so that we can gain approval and become part of this community. I can't imagine the goal of this forum would ever be "Let's make it as difficult as possible to gain new members". I for one, 100% want to be a part of this community....but the thing is...I will never be a true part of your community until I'm approved. It's a bit difficult to become a part of your community when I can't really contribute yet (other than attempt to provide advice to other people newer than myself that are asking questions you all have already answered for me)..and I certainly can't ever get approved if I'm waiting month after month after month for items I paid in full for with no end in site to the waiting. Some of the nicest items I actually did receive...came from the random trade posts...versus the "approved" vendors that I would likely be directed to by someone if another system or trade forum lock out were put in place.

[bwattsup]

I for one, 100% want to be a part of this community....but the thing is...I will never be a true part of your community until I'm approved. It's a bit difficult to become a part of your community when I can't really contribute yet (other than attempt to provide advice to other people newer than myself that are asking questions you all have already answered for me).

 

I feel as much a part of this community as 501st members. In fact, I feel more welcome on this board than most others I've been a part of. We should all share our knowledge no matter what level it is.

 

 

Some of the nicest items I actually did receive...came from the random trade posts...versus the "approved" vendors that I would likely be directed to by someone if another system or trade forum lock out were put in place.

 

Dan makes a really good point here. If it wasn't for the trade section, I would have never bought my Hyperfirm. Maybe a stricter policy on vendors is more applicable. Sci-Fire was already known for their top notch product and excellent customer service. As a newbie, I'd still like to have some access to the random opportunities that come about.

[Chex]

Well we're def not saying we don't want newbies to be part of the community here. What we're saying is having a vendor pop up, and post in the trade section that they have an item to sell, or have an ongoing run, with out being validated by either their time in the community (which could equal post count) or a product that's been tested and can be validated by other 501st members (such as lead times, quality, etc). We're doing this primarily to protect you, the newbies, from getting taken, and also for other members as well.

 

I can tell you that I bought a nice pair of esprit gloves on here in the trade section when I was a newbie. Yeah, I wouldn't have had the chance had I been locked out. This is just a forum to gauge what you all think, and we'll take from that and form our policy based off of your thoughts. So everyone's thoughts and opinions are valuable to us. We could have just instituted a policy, but we wanted to know how everyone felt, and work from there. This will be a process that in the end, will protect everyone from hopefully getting scammed (not saying anyone is) or receiving poor quality products. We want our detachment to be the best dressed in the legion after all.

 

And we do have an "Ask the Armorer" section where potential scouts and KTs can ask about things. Not only armorers and CS answer those questions, but other members do to. This is one of the most helpful communities I've been a part of. If anyone, and I mean anyone has questions, feel free to ask any of us.

[Heavy]

Well... I think you guys are thinking of me in this case...

 

I´m new here in this forum and I´ve put an interest-thread up in the trade-forum, because my dad has made a couple of DLT-19´s for some members of the NG and me. Those members was so thrilled about it, that they said, we should put them up for sale, if my dad was up for making more. I´ve put the thread up in NG and FISD too without problems...

 

Before becoming a member here I was at the FISD forum, because I was going to make a TK armor and had allready ordered it from TM - but after talking with some of the other "low" members af NG, I was persuaded to go ahead with a TB instead.

 

Here in Europe we have problems getting prop-weapons from outside Europe. It's hard to get dealers to send it, harder to get through customs and then it costs extra in tax. My dad is an old military man, he got the gold medalje for operating a machine gun on foot in the army and he knows, how guns work and how to make things in wood/pvc/metal.

 

Therefore I did as the NG members said about letting others have the opportunity to grab these "weapons" that are otherwise difficult to obtain + easily going to cost a lot of money. And here one should not wait for months to get things couse he won´t take more orders, then he can make the props in time. But he doesn´t want to make, say 5 riffles in advance, if no one wants to buy them, it´s a lot of work. He can make one in 2 weeks and the payment is not done, until the prop is ready, which is a risk for my dad. Everything is handmade from scratch... Therefore I made the thread to see, if there where any interested...

 

My dad is not making a lot of money out of it - he´s getting his materials covered and a little bit of his workhours/power at the toolshop... but he is retired and can therefore spend several hours in his workshop, which he does. If he is not satisfied with a part, he does a whole new one all over ... things must be in order.

 

Right now he´s making a biker scout blaster for me all in wood, and so far it seems, that it will be one really nice piece like the DLT-19. It would really be sad, if we newbies can´t be allowed to get into the tradeforum, when we have a great product to offer.

 

I am in favor of a system, where the "bad" dealers can get on some kind of blacklist - but I also believe that we new ones must have an opportunity to prove our worth before you cut us out of the community in advance.

 

If you want some kind of validation for the DLT-19´s, I can get the NG members, who bought one, to send you that in a pm or here in the public forum.

[4505Marcel]

I dont feel a trooper should be 501st to access the trade section, as gear needs to be brought to become 501st, but a member should have many posts and time in to access it. More so we get to know said trooper and also once we know more about them say body size ect. They can be advised of say what armour that will suit them, before they get access to the trade section to buy it. Were not talking alot here just say 1 month an 10 posts even. So were certainly not locking anyone out.

 

Now we have a vendors list in here, so guys can see who does what if a vendor wants to be on it, things like bunds, boots, undersuits are not really licensed so can be public but armour however is. So in this public section we could use the vendor points so guys can see who is good and who is not.

 

I feel we could put a time limit on sales, why do vendors need 6-9 months to get gear out???? In short they dont, for instance a set of armour can be pulled very quickly. So a vendor shouldnt take money untill they are ready more or less to make it in real time. Or put us on a list an once near ready to forefill the order then make contact to take the funds, that way we are all within the 45 day paypal safety net.

 

I do feel a vendor should be atleast 501st cleared, if not surely they are just using the forum as a money making machine. At the end of the day we are not supposed to make money from this at all.

 

Why a locked 501st sale thread and a standard locked thread, well thats simple you need to be 501st to buy 501st swag

[4505Marcel]

I feel as much a part of this community as 501st members. In fact, I feel more welcome on this board than most others I've been a part of. We should all share our knowledge no matter what level it is.

 

 

 

 

Dan makes a really good point here. If it wasn't for the trade section, I would have never bought my Hyperfirm. Maybe a stricter policy on vendors is more applicable. Sci-Fire was already known for their top notch product and excellent customer service. As a newbie, I'd still like to have some access to the random opportunities that come about.

 

That is also what i mean by we get to know you and what you want first, if you said in the ask an armourer thread. I really wnt a hyperfirm, then the armourers can then give you the contact details for said pistol

[Chef]

Heidi... I don't think for a minute that this is directed solely at you.

 

 

It's more likely to have come about with the recent shenanigans concerning Crow, and a few others (which have not occurred on this forum).

 

 

I can understand people's concerns about "not being able to get stuff", but seriously, this isn't the case. Where there is a will, there is a way. Like Heidi, she's getting her own stuff made.

I don't advertise any of my stuff here....... purely because it is an unsecured forum.

Does that mean I loose out on people asking me for things. For sure, yes. Does that bother me... Not in the slightest.

 

 

 

And the intention is not to drive newbies away. Probably completely the opposite.

We in the UKG have found that by engaging new recruits early with a personal approach (via PM), then they are much more inclined to participate on the boards than they are just lurking. They have a familiar point of contact, which to refer to.

Does it make more work for us... YES, hell, yes. But that's what we are there for. We accept that is the price for doing what we do.

 

Things always have a way of being noticed...

I'll take Heidi's DLT-19 as an example. It gets built... I can guarantee that someone will go... WOW can you make me one? And thus the ball starts rolling. That's what happened for me.

All it takes is a little time and patience.

This forum is not supposed to be an 'off the peg' Biker Scout Store.

We have to remember, EVERYTHING that you make/put on is all UNLICENSED. With Disney having the rights. To ALL of it.

 

And that last point may also be a driving factor behind all this.

 

So don't take anything personally. It's a case of CYA. Cover Your Arse!

[4505Marcel]

Well... I think you guys are thinking of me in this case...

 

I´m new here in this forum and I´ve put an interest-thread up in the trade-forum, because my dad has made a couple of DLT-19´s for some members of the NG and me. Those members was so thrilled about it, that they said, we should put them up for sale, if my dad was up for making more. I´ve put the thread up in NG and FISD too without problems...

 

Before becoming a member here I was at the FISD forum, because I was going to make a TK armor and had allready ordered it from TM - but after talking with some of the other "low" members af NG, I was persuaded to go ahead with a TB instead.

 

Here in Europe we have problems getting prop-weapons from outside Europe. It's hard to get dealers to send it, harder to get through customs and then it costs extra in tax. My dad is an old military man, he got the gold medalje for operating a machine gun on foot in the army and he knows, how guns work and how to make things in wood/pvc/metal.

 

Therefore I did as the NG members said about letting others have the opportunity to grab these "weapons" that are otherwise difficult to obtain + easily going to cost a lot of money. And here one should not wait for months to get things couse he won´t take more orders, then he can make the props in time. But he doesn´t want to make, say 5 riffles in advance, if no one wants to buy them, it´s a lot of work. He can make one in 2 weeks and the payment is not done, until the prop is ready, which is a risk for my dad. Everything is handmade from scratch... Therefore I made the thread to see, if there where any interested...

 

My dad is not making a lot of money out of it - he´s getting his materials covered and a little bit of his workhours/power at the toolshop... but he is retired and can therefore spend several hours in his workshop, which he does. If he is not satisfied with a part, he does a whole new one all over ... things must be in order.

 

Right now he´s making a biker scout blaster for me all in wood, and so far it seems, that it will be one really nice piece like the DLT-19. It would really be sad, if we newbies can´t be allowed to get into the tradeforum, when we have a great product to offer.

 

I am in favor of a system, where the "bad" dealers can get on some kind of blacklist - but I also believe that we new ones must have an opportunity to prove our worth before you cut us out of the community in advance.

 

If you want some kind of validation for the DLT-19´s, I can get the NG members, who bought one, to send you that in a pm or here in the public forum.

 

Once 501st cleared though under this system you coul sell them on behalf of your father, trouble is once things do go belly up (and Im not pointing this to you hun) how on earth do troopers get in contact if the vendor decides not to honour the deal. Atleast if 501st registered we can then go to their CO or they will have details logged or someone will know them as a garrison mate so contact can be made.

 

Chef made a good point if WIP are posted interest automatically starts, I had this with my rifle. Same with yours Heidi. And lets be honest a month and a few posts is not hard to achieve. We need to get to know troopers, and vice verser. It give guys time to do reasearch ect also, but ultimately this is what the armourers are for, that side of thing seems to be a bit dormant at present

[4505Marcel]

Greetings..I am certainly one of the newer members here but I def would like to add my thoughts or simply add some "stress" to the points some of you already make.

 

Locking out a new member from the trade forum is not a good idea imo. While I certainly appreciated the "vendors" post. It didn't cover everything and there are quite a few very nice items that I've acquired from the trade postings that I would never have gotten otherwise. If you do lock out us "newbies" someone is going to have a very full agenda of constantly redirecting people to certain vendors. An example of this is the wonderful hyperfirm blaster that I was able to purchase. These aren't available all the time, yes we know the vendor, but they aren't always available and there isn't a current link to them on the vendor page. I feel like my being diligent relative to checking the posts daily... was in turn rewarded with a very, very nice blaster.

 

I'm going to assume that more often than not we are dealing with "difficult sellers" versus " difficulty buyers". I realize this is a general statement but typically a buyer pays for something that they are seeing advertised, waits for the item, and then expects that item to be as described. There are certainly very picky buyers, and very impatient buyers...but that sort of thing can usually be cleared up with initial communication. The fact is...a buyer is trusting a seller with their hard earned money via these boards...it is the seller who must in turn "earn" the money they are receiving. You generally don't walk into a brick or mortar store or any other on-line business for that matter and expect to receive a hassle if your unhappy with either the service or the product.

 

In contrast to the impatient and "never can be pleased" buyers we have the sellers who don't come remotely close to projected wait times..or remotely close to quality in regards to advertised product...or who have zero inclination to make good on their poor products. I see this as a much more serious problem.

 

So....I am very happy you all are looking at this. My solutions or advice for some of this is 1) NOTHING..should require payment in full up front. Half down would be acceptable and the other half at time of shipment would be my advice. There is absolutely zero incentive for sellers to finish my products when they have all of my money up front. 2). If your going to use this site to sell your products...then you must have a plan for unhappy customers and state it up front. Money back, adjustments , replacements, etc. Have something in place.

 

Again, thanks for looking at this..it is very much appreciated.

 

Trouble is some of this stuff is made to measure, so by not taking payments up front is very dodgy, I had a few in the past order stuff and then once made backed out. For an instance trying to find a trooper again with exactly the same waist and chest including height of bund for me wasnt going to happen so items were binned, hence I ask for payments up front.

But then ive never not delivered so troopers trust me, and that has to be earned. I do feel long waiting times once paid has to be stopped, things must be kept within the paypal safety net time wise. I cant understand why vendors take the money knowing they are not even going to be staring the order for several months, surely a list is good enough, they dont have to start the work untill paid but take ayment nearer the time.

 

This is not a newbie lock out, all we are asking is a time scale to get to know troopers, armourers will advise on vendors.

 

The other thing we see is vendors popping in with no posts selling wares, or members coming in buying their bits and we never see them again which is a shame

[4505Marcel]

Just ha a thought...

 

On a flip side what if all vendors stopped selling wares due to licensing issues so nothing could be brought anyway, ultimately would mean no scouts and no trade section. In the past one of the major armour makers said to me they dont adverstise because it is an open forum, if we increased security for them also, maybe they would be more open.

 

Food for thought

[Heavy]

It going to be hard to make everyone happy - but as long as one from the 501st. members, can send us newbies into contact with a dealer through asking question about parts in a thread, I´m happy.

 

Since I´m, hopefully, going to use both the DLT-19 and the biker scout pistol myself on troops, I hear you regarding others will see it and perhaps this will give my dad some work... + the ones my dad has allready sold to other members are going to be shown off too.

 

Anyway, my dad is not doing this as a form for moneymaker - he´s just proud if someone wants to use his work and because he loves to be in his workshop, working with wood and making new things.

 

But I can see the good thing in a vendor being registreret through 501st. - though I don´t think I´ll ever be able to get my dad into an armor

[Griffin-X]

As the guys stated above, we all care about this detachment, the troops (both new and old) and keeping things open and honest. Great feedback and discussion topics so far and I know this will help us all in the end.

[PanzerKraken]

How about a list similar to the CRL post but with recommended vendors listed for each part. Only the mods and such would be able to put people on that list and the newbies will all have iin one spot a one stop shopping list of those that the 501st have given their blessing too. Make it like a stick on the top of the trade forum so the newbs know where to look right off the bat. Can also on the same list have a vendor section of listings of known vendors to stay away from such as some notorious awful ebay sellers.

 

So far already the trade board does a good job with members telling whats up with each vendor source usually. If time and backed up sellers becomes a issue, remove that vendor from the recommendations or make it that if they don't make it clear their time table, that mods will edit their sale post with data on how slow a seller is being for whatever reasons till they can clear up that mess.

[bwattsup]

Just out of curiosity, what does it take to be a "Legion approved" vendor? Is there a process that us without 501st access don't see? What actually constitutes this blessing? Is it a good track record coupled with a quality product? Is it just a loose term, or is there actually some sort of approval process?

[Chef]

There is no such thing as Legion Approved...

 

Everything we do is unlicensed, and the Legion cannot give any Approval for anything.

 

 

I think what they are referring to is that the person must be 501st registered. I.E, have a 501st Cleared costume and belong to a Garrison.

[bwattsup]

Thanks Rob! I guess I was just a little unsure. For those of us uniniated, we just don't know what's on the other side. We know there is an other side, but know not what happens. And that's completely understandable